OK - should Wilson apologize for being out of turn? Sure. That is the bigger thing to do. But no need to apologize for the comment itself. The truth needs no apology.
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OK - should Wilson apologize for being out of turn? Sure. That is the bigger thing to do. But no need to apologize for the comment itself. The truth needs no apology.
Maybe you should invite both of them over to your house for beerQuote:
Originally Posted by honedright
Ahh, to hell with it. Post deleted.
From SC is'nt he they are kinda frantic over there... just the facts please...Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
mh
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnich67
Thank you Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!
mh
So what's the problem? Are you upset that the guy throwing his shoes(he threw them both)missed?Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
How about this news source. Or do you have something derogatory to say about the Washington Examiner too.Quote:
Originally Posted by michhop
Obamacare won't cover illegal immigrants? Yes it will, says Congressional Research Service | Washington Examiner
Or this source.
Surely no draft dodging drywall hangers or pill addicts here: http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...FjODMyNTdmNTU=
Facts enough for you?
Sorry, Glen, I have to argue with that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Even though I'm against this health care reform, I think this whole notion of "death panels" is utter nonsense, and so ridiculous that it keeps us from focusing on real issues.
These so called "death panels" are really just a provision in the bill that would ensure that people receiving government health care talk to their doctors and make decisions in advance regarding end of life care, in the same way as a living will, which EVERY RESPONSIBLE ADULT should have anyway.
Do you want to be kept on life support if you are brain dead?
Do you want to be kept on life support only if the doctor feels there's some medical benfit?
Do you not want to ever be kept on extended life support for any reason?
Regardless of your answers; you, your family and your doctor should all know what you want.
That's all these so-called "death panels" accomplish. To even call them "death panels" is nothing but BS propaganda. The questionaire that is mandated to be completed by the "death panel" (a.k.a. you and your doctor) is readily available to anybody who cares to look at it.
Just playing devil's advocate here; I think people that are fearful that a government run health plan would mandate if not now, at some future point that the the health care provider would have to say "no" "no" "no" to someone even if that person answered "yes" "yes" "yes" to the above three questions you've listed. A precursor to euthanasia. I would assume that's what some are afraid of.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
Chris L
Well, to continue the same line of reasoning, some people are afraid that a small meteorite could strike them dead, but it won't keep me from going outside.
There are so many really valid points of contention with healthcare reform that wasting time and energy debating about propaganda and evil conspiracy theories is really a waste of time for all of us, regardless of which side of the debate you're on.
As I've said a couple times now, I'm completely and totally against this healthcare reform, and I cringe every time somebody brings up "death panels" because it makes everyone who is against this reform look like a nut-job.
I think using the term "Death Panel" was an unfortunate mistake. I understand what the bill does. What I disagree with is the concept that individuals need a government provision to make sure that they talk to their doctors about future planning. Or any planning for that matter.
Do we need the government to prompt us to discuss private matters with our doctors? Are we that dependent? Are we that oblivious about our own needs?
We need someone else to tell us what to do, how and when? Really??
The idea that some benevolent "official" thinks we need to be prodded in order to do the right thing for ourselves. Doesn't that arrogance bother anyone, besides me, just a little?
Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
You see, your words are asking a single question with an obvious answer, but there are really two other questions here that are more important.
1. Should we need the government to tell us to make a living will?
Personally, I say no. We shouldn't need that.
2. Are there many people in this country who are either so lazy or so incompetent that they really do need the government to tell them to make a living will?
Personally, I say yes. I see these people every day, in uncountable droves.
What that leads us to, is how do we see to the well being of our society by reducing the financial burden of idiots who never set up a living will, without unduly incurring cost and inconveniencing people who have their act together without government intervention.
Sitting through your "death panel" with your doctor would take about 2 minutes if you already have a living will, and could simply be taken care of at a regular check-up, so there's no added cost and no meaningful inconvenience to people with an IQ over 90, while all the people who are too lazy or incompetent to take care of it on their own, will have their hand held through the process so they don't become a burden to the rest of us.
The Associated Press: Health care talks focus on illegal immigrants
( AP about as neutral as you can get ...just the facts the fact seems to be there's rally not much precedent for proof of citizenship...big problem.As the story says Obama is pushing for no illegal immigrant coverage...I.D. is a problem.
National Review: William F. Buckley, Jr. ?????
Founder editor at large ,I think till his passing ,a little to right for me ,great minds just misled.)
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/michhop/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg[/IMG]:whttp://www.slate.com/id/2115253/ google this read top result at slate ...
The Washington Examiner...hello can you say Tabloid can you say space babies National Enquirer can we say if you call this an informational source
your license to think should be revoked ... not to be mean about it, but like most of the hard righties you should a little more like 5 real minutes...
NOT HARDLY ....but I expect it is for you small minds think alike...Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
But I have other RW BH's to beat up on now see ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Although I don't believe you're directing what I view as insults to me personally, I'd like to think our exchange of discourse is a bit more civil than the way you're responding here.Quote:
Originally Posted by michhop
Chris L
Actually, from what I read in the provision (this was a couple weeks ago), it does not direct anyone to make a living will or advance directive. It merely clarifies that Medicare will pay for the consultation regarding the available options - that it will be paid for once every five years unless a new diagnosis is made within that time. The provision simply defines the benefit as a covered service. Certain pundits have tried to create a hysteria around the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
Jordan
I pulled this from the bill:
Advance Care Planning Consultation
(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term 'advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:
the rest is here: Text of H.R.3200 as Introduced in House: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress
There is so much to this bill, it's a nightmare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
Now Steve you just made a very good point here, and I think you also just came to the true problem in societies today...
The Sheeple, and why the Government in their infinite wisdom thinks that we are all Sheeple, and that we do need to be herded along though our mundane little Sheeple lives ....
Now dealing with John Q Public, yes, I tend to agree with you, that not many, but most are to stupid to guide their own lives, and really that is what this boils down to isn't it... Because the masses of the unwashed, illiterate, and lazy, can't do for themselves, we must all do for them...
Because it is much easier for our Government drovers to move us along as a herd, those of us that want to move on our own, become the problem not the solution....
I'm not entirely sure if that was completely sincere, sarcastic or a little of both.
There is a lot of truth to the notion that the government sees all of us as "sheeple" but I think that allowing it is a slippery slope.
I have no problem with having these sorts of consultations paid, and if they were mandatory, I'd be okay with that too.
However, it's important that each time something like this comes up, people carefully examine it. There certainly are those in politics today who would gladly have the government completely run the lives of the average american.
Apologizing was the right thing to do. Regardless of whatever party the president belongs to,you would not stand up and call your boss a liar in the middle of a presentation. I DID NOT VOTE THIS TIME. My reason is because no matter who I voted for.....we keep showing the world how divided a country we are on all levels. I am sure lots of countries are trying to figure out how to topple us. I believe we are at our weakest. The people we put in office cannot even contain themselves. That was for the whole world to see. I would not have done that to Bush, and I did not agree with most of his policies.
No, because those aren't facts. Now we consider agenda-based blogs factual "news sources"? The first article is an editorial written by a member of the Heritage Foundation!Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
I cited articles taken directly from the bill. You cite blogs. Basically you're saying that, despite being explicitly written in the bill it's still incorrect because there isn't an additional section that says the first section will be enforced?
Let's pretend that we're in opposite land where the opinions are right and the facts are wrong. Some stereotype that you hate signs up for self-sufficient public option. They get treated and your private insurance isn't affected.
What happens now? Some stereotype that you hate walks into the emergency room without insurance, gets treated, and now your private insurance costs have to be raised to cover it.
Some 45M American citizens are without insurance and countless others have insurance that will not reimburse them. I guess they're all "draft dodging (Really? When was our last draft, anyway? It's cool for the government to force kids into the military, but heaven forbid we try to keep them healthy!), drywall hanging, pill addicts" and don't deserve affordable coverage that's actually useful.
I can't quote or link to any articles but I would like to add what I heard on the radio a couple days ago regarding the topic at hand. As I understand it, there are currently undocumented immigrants currently taking advantage of Medicaid. It is also likely to continue. The system was initially structured to require proof of citizenship. When the rubber hit the road, it was learned that there are a large number of people who cannot prrove their citizenship. Sadly, the reality of the situation is the people who need the program most are elderly infirmed and not surprisingly there are many elderly infirmed who have no proof of their citizenship and no way to (realistically) obtain that proof. After several deaths of people who were denied care because they could not proove they were U.S. citizens, the regulation was relaxed. Naturally, there are always going to be people who will bilk any system they can for as much as they can.
I voted no he should not have apologized however I don't think it was an appropriate method time or place to make the remark, however if you are going to do something like that then stand up be a man and say yes I said it and yes I mean it, despite what he may say now I doubt that was not a carefully premeditated action and a spur of the moment occurance.
Seems to me whether it is this or baseball players using steroids or whatever the general consensus has become apologize and everything is ok, what ever happened to being responsible for your actions?
Not taking sides on the deeper issues just on the apology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
No Steve unfortunately I think you hit the nail dead square on the head...
As some of you know I actually see people's true standings ever single day, that's all I do is look at credit reports
What I see first off is a true cross section EXCEPT this area is 98% white, there are just not a ton of people of color in Nth Idaho...
One thing I will say is this, and it is just what I see...
I of course see the people living on their credit cards who will never climb out of debt, and the student loans that cripple people for 10 years, Divorce and Business Bankruptices...
In the front of the report is the "Unpaids" section this tells me very quickly about bills and debts that are/were in collections... I would guess that higher than 75% of those are Medical...
So I agree that there is a huge problem, but I do not agree that this is the way to solve it... We just can't keep piling people on the cart and dragging them, some of them need to get off and help push...
Also I have a question of our friends overseas???
Now if I were in your country, visiting, talking about razors, and I had an Appendicitis attack and needed to be rushed to the hospital... What happens???? who pays.. I guess this is more to you guys who live in countries that have Social Medicine???
Right, this I think is large part of the issue. The current situation isQuote:
Originally Posted by icedog
- americans have not been interested in enforcing the borders for decades
- americans are against the federal government issue them and then require them to carry a proof of citizenship.
- americans are not comfortable leaving ill/sick human beings to suffer even if they are illegal residents
as far as I can tell you can't really change the situation without changing all of these.
I can only speak anecdotally about the what happens. We acquired a company in Strasbourg, France and an associate was sent to help set up their I.T. equipment. While over there he severely sprained his ankle, went to the hospital (thinking it was broken), and was treated for free. Now, he also said that the hospital made him a bit leery, but he got his X-ray, an air cast and some crutches with no hassle, no cost, and no proof of citizenship. His cost was waiting for, IIRC, two hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Of course he had it checked out when he came back and did rehab over here, mostly (but not entirely) reimbursed by insurance.
I can't explain enough that even if you're not a citizen in America and you go to the emergency room, you will be treated regardless of whether or not you can pay for it.
I have not used the health system in my country when I've been there recently, but along with the plastic card aetna gives me a piece of paper with collect numbers to call when I'm abroad. I am pretty sure you get at least an emergency level of health care no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I mean look at the effort and expense the US government would go to take an american citizen out of prison in a foreign country. You'll be fine.
a pro tattooer friend of mine has lived in Spain and France for years now. He was illegal in France and got sick enough to be hospitalized and was treated at no cost. He is now in the process of becoming legal. Not changing citizenship but just becoming legal.
If you want to know what the policy is here in the USA then go to any Home Depot anywhere in the USA and within a quarter mile of the place you will see numerous illegals standing on the curb in groups waiting for a contractor or home owner to pick them up for day labor.
Ask around, some of them may tell you what the deal is.
My closest friend Ray was visiting his inlaws in Denmark. He tripped, fell down and broke a few bones in his left hand. He went to a hospital where he was welcomed with just his passport. He was examined, medicated for the pain and x-rayed. They set his hand and put a cast on it. As he was being given his instructions for care and follow-up, he asked if his American health insurance would cover the bill. As the nurse gave him a written copy of the instructions and a bottle of pain meds, she laughed and said, "there is no charge for medical care here." Ray asked if that was because he was a foreign visitor and she told him, "No, no one pays for medical care in Denmark. It comes from our taxes."
Apparently other countries can make it work.
I'm with Bruno on this one. It is a matter of respect and good manners. Full stop. Whether it be the President addressing Congress, a mother talking to her family, or anything else you care to name. A genuine and sincere apology when the situation demands it shows strength of character in my book.
James.
Indeed, not just Americans. Any civilised society should not feel comfortable leaving the sick to suffer no matter what their status.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
We are all fellow humans. If you were to fall sick or get hurt in the UK, I am proud to know you would receive care irrespective of your status as a tourist/immigrant or ability to pay, or even your own government's policy if I were to fall ill in the USA. And yes, I'm happy for my taxes to pay for you as an individual should you need it as a visitor to my homeland. Even if you were an illegal immigrant -- I'd hope you'd eventually be sent home, but in the meantime I wouldn't want to see you die or suffer for want of treatment.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
And if you don't recognise the argument about civilised societies, then even looking at what's fair in terms of hard cash spent it's a no-brainer. I presume when you travel here you spend money. As a tourist maybe. Or on business. Either way, you're bringing money, cash and possibly foreign investment to the UK. I figure providing free emergency healthcare to visitors while they are here is like looking after the goose that lays golden eggs. On the other hand, leaving them to suffer, die, etc... well, ain't good for the country's brand.
P.S. Europeans have a form to fill when travelling within the EU which means they get all the free care they need and the visitor's government will pick up the tab later with paperwork. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a similar system/form for EU travellers to the US.
Yes he was correct in appologizing, there is a TIME and PlACE to diplay your displeasure and views.
I am not saying he was wrong because Obama DOES LIE, but he could of been tactful and gentlemanly about it!
Just my view...
It's never wrong to apologize, but also never wrong to speak the truth when you see the lie no matter how much society punishes you for it. I wish more republicans had the ball to tell Obama off.Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
No We don't need the government to tell us to make living wills. If you are lazy it still is not the governments place to tell you you need a living will. Especially not the Federal Governments place.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
I think it is very funny how some people think it is a great issue that a few undocumented immigrants might take advantage of a plan to provide health care. How can it possibly be a bad thing to help a fellow human being who needs medicine? How can anyone find fault with a method to help anyone in need? Meanwhile, we are still involved in a war that has caused the deaths of thousands of people because of boldface lies told to the entire world by George W. Bush. Lies that were told with no possible purpose other than to make huge amounts of money for himself and his corporate cronies. Was Mr. Wilson whining and shouting like an ill behaved child then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
Just some small changes in red there for ya Bradamonius :D
Why would you think "tens of millions" of undocumented immigrants would be able to take advantage of a healthcare system? I think that many might be discovered don't you?
Sadly, it seems like disliking Bush was very en vogue and disliking Obama is a faux pas of not full blown racism. Gotta love double standards.
I don't know the exact numbers but I'd venture to say that there are also tens of millions of uninsured American citizens. Why should they be denied?
Illegal immigrants get treated in the ER now no matter what. We still pay for them. When they call the police or fire department, are they asked for documentation before they're helped? Do they need to show identification before using our postal service?
Short of enacting another "Operation Wet Back," this will continue to be. I'm Mexican and as such, I strongly appose illegal immigration. There are legal ways to enter this country and take advantage of the American Dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by commiecat
Sadly no they would not be discovered, even now it is illegal for a hospital to ask about citizenship status.Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
It's a bad thing to help people who are taking money out of my pocket, just like being an accessory to robbery really. They don't contribute to the system and I have no choice but to help them. I don't think so. It is completely different if I choose to donate to a cause that helps them, as I have with both my time and my money. But when someone tells me I have to I have lost my freedom.
I'm in favor of asking at hospitals and if they are illegal treat them then ship them home. If they would rather die here than go home that is their choice and one that doesn't rob anyone else of their freedom.
Its a cruel world and I'm tired of paying so our politicains can look generous. Of course they can be generous, it isn't their money, or their work to earn it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildtim
And somehow we'd still get stuck with funeral costs. I dislike any member who does not serve his/her country in any way or contribute to greater good.