Unconstitutional Action and Gun Laws

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gregs656

Sorry guys, try this, find me a society, like ours that does not have widespread GUN ownership and then gun ownership becomes legal and many conceal and carry etc etc and crime figures fall.

I do not dispute the fact that we are armed as a society, and I used armed, perhaps wrongly but fairly obviously in the context of this thread, to refer specifically to guns.

I do not believe it would help. I do not believe it helps any where else in the world. I think that citing figures directly after a change of anything is basically pointless because it takes time for society to adjust to change and for those ignoring new laws to be punished.

We have a legal right to own a shotgun, the police need to have a damn good reason not to give you a license.

I would say 42 is pretty good actually. In fact, we have a fantasitcly low level of gun related homicide. If you can find the stats, the US is some where around 4 per 100,000, we are around 0.1 - 0.2 per 100,000.

Just for the record, I'm actually pro gun, I just don't believe they are gods gift to a safe society and I wish people wouldn't use what is such a clearly wear argument to lobby pro gun. Ultimately, there is no need to defend your self with a gun if no one else has one, and generally speaking that is true right now in this country. I know that is difficult for someone who does not live in a largely gun free society to understand.

Personally, I think we should throw away guns and go back to swords. That would be much more interesting.

---

I suppose the only thing I can think of is different states in the US which allow concealed carry against those that dont. The article I cited mentions FBI research that shows that states which have concealed carry laws have lower crime rates than those that have more restrictions.

For me really the crux of this debate is your point that we would have no need to defend ourselves with guns if no one else had them. I agree with you absolutely 100%, but criminals do have them.

I really do totally agree with you. If there were no guns, I wouldnt be sitting here and saying we should be allowed to carry them and to defend ourselves with them. But there are and so I am.

Ok, generally most people are unarmed. But if you come across one of the ones that isnt, you'll wish that you were! And I speak from personal experience here.

But I do agree swords would be more interesting! Thered be no more "Gimme your wallet", it'd all be about the duelling! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stubear

I really do totally agree with you. If there were no guns, I wouldnt be sitting here and saying we should be allowed to carry them and to defend ourselves with them. But there are and so I am.

Ok, generally most people are unarmed. But if you come across one of the ones that isnt, you'll wish that you were! And I speak from personal experience here.

But I do agree swords would be more interesting! Thered be no more "Gimme your wallet", it'd all be about the duelling! :)

---

You're never going to get rid of all of them, but, I think we have to accept in this country the chances are low, I don't think bringing back guns would do us any favors at the moment.

Yes, if I came across someone who had a gun shoved in my face, I would probably think it was time to change as well. Not happened to enough people yet though, I think if we brought them back too early, it would cause even more problems.

Dueling, for sure. I'd love to learn how to fence, expensive to learn though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruno

There is a difference between wepons for personal defense, and for waging war. I am not against people having guns. But I think there is no reason for civilians to have military grade weapons. There is an army for that purpose.

---

I beg to differ on this one. Look at American history. Who controls the military/army? That's right, the government. If we ever have to wage war against our government AGAIN, we must keep the playing field even. This is how many of us here in the U.S. feel, we wish to keep America "The land of the free and home of the brave".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I beg to differ on this one. Look at American history. Who controls the military/army? That's right, the government. If we ever have to wage war against our government AGAIN, we must keep the playing field even. This is how many of us here in the U.S. feel, we wish to keep America "The land of the free and home of the brave".

---

great point..without a level field we would only be slaves and as about effective as ants against a giant anteater. we need to be able to stop an out of control gov't if it comes down to that...(i do agree we do not need nukes for personal use and i do not think the gov't would be stupid enough to use them against the citizens of the country)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruno

There is a difference between wepons for personal defense, and for waging war. I am not against people having guns. But I think there is no reason for civilians to have military grade weapons. There is an army for that purpose.

---

59caddy's earlier post brought up this question with me: What would you call a military grade weapon? Are you referring to automatic rifles specifically, or anything used in the military? Just out of interest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I beg to differ on this one. Look at American history. Who controls the military/army? That's right, the government. If we ever have to wage war against our government AGAIN, we must keep the playing field even. This is how many of us here in the U.S. feel, we wish to keep America "The land of the free and home of the brave".

---

I used to be amused when friends of mine stockpiled ammunition. I have always kept a small supply but these guys who bought thousands of rounds struck me as a little off the wall. After all, we live in a semi civilized society with laws and law enforcement.

As I grew older and I hope wiser I realized that the thin veneer of civility could be wiped away by unforeseen circumstances and that it could come down to living or dieing based on who got there first with the most. Seems incredible but so did the Soviet Union self destructing and the near crash of the worldwide financial system. If it had gone down the way it could have anarchy might have become the rule rather than the exception.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I used to be amused when friends of mine stockpiled ammunition. I have always kept a small supply but these guys who bought thousands of rounds struck me as a little off the wall. After all, we live in a semi civilized society with laws and law enforcement.

As I grew older and I hope wiser I realized that the thin veneer of civility could be wiped away by unforeseen circumstances and that it could come down to living or dieing based on who got there first with the most. Seems incredible but so did the Soviet Union self destructing and the near crash of the worldwide financial system. If it had gone down the way it could have anarchy might have become the rule rather than the exception.

---

another thought from the past..we all remember Y2K and the possible chaos that could have happened.. this is where i had a fair amount of stockpile of food items(nothing super big as some did). i also had the firepower to stop anyone trying to take from me and my family and friends.
in other words, it is better to be prepared for what "may" happen and survive, than be completely defenseless and you and your family helpless against any and all "types" of enemies..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hillie

59caddy's earlier post brought up this question with me: What would you call a military grade weapon? Are you referring to automatic rifles specifically, or anything used in the military? Just out of interest.

---

I personally consider a military grade weapon one that I cannot legally own and our military can, ie: full auto/burst, anything firing a round larger than .50 caliber, explosive rounds, explosives, etc. I personally own several rifles that are the same (probably better quality) as our troops. I am personally not a fan of full auto due to being an accuracy buff, but three-shot burst is very practical & controllable.

I just feel that if our military can have it, any law abiding citizen should be able to have it as well. It should be MY choice as to what I want to own, not anyone else's :gwh:.

I also own and know how to use my swords:matrix:. Two of my wakizashi's are old enough to have probably been used at one time or another.

I've always liked this idea...

YouTube - Why Switzerland Has The Lowest Crime Rate In The World

Great video, says it all...