If a tree falls in the forest..you're gonna hate this one.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

If you see the light from a star, is there really a star?

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Hypothetically, when viewing stars that are from waaaaay out on the edge of our percievable universe, the light has travelled for billions of years, and there is a good chance that the star indeed no longer exists.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

Sound is defined as :
The free dictionary

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=8 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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I think sound is being confused with communication by some here. Communication requires someone to receive the message. Sound just needs to be capable of being heard (not heard necessarily). If a deaf man stands was standing close enough to the fallen tree to feel all the vibrations, but didn't hear it, does it not make a sound?

The fact that we observe something does not make it so, either. We see stars in the night sky every night that burned out millions of years ago (according to scientists). So, some of the stars no longer exist even though we "see" them... Human observance or nonobservance is not required for something to "really" happen.

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Aha!

By the very definition you quoted about it states detection by human organs of hearing as part of the quality of sound.

Thus, if no human is around to detect the sounds.....

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

Aha!

By the very definition you quoted about it states detection by human organs of hearing as part of the quality of sound.

Thus, if no human is around to detect the sounds.....

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No, Sir. You need to reread that. It says capable of being heard. That's not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

No, Sir. You need to reread that. It says capable of being heard. That's not the same thing.

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How will one know if it is capable of being heard unless someone can hear it?

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

How will one know if it is capable of being heard unless someone can hear it?

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They won't. Isn't that basically the original question ;)

It makes a sound whether anyone is there to hear it or not.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

How will one know if it is capable of being heard unless someone can hear it?

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The same way we know you don't vanish into thin air when you log off of SRP. We know it makes a sound irrespective of direct observation. Sounds do not require detection/observation to be sounds. We know because every time a person has seen a tree fall they've heard a sound. Observing and detecting sound is totally passive. The presence of a person doesn't cause sound that otherwise wouldn't exist.

By capable I believe it refers to dBA and Freq.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

The same way we know you don't vanish into thin air when you log off of SRP. We know it makes a sound irrespective of direct observation. Sounds do not require detection/observation to be sounds. We know because every time a person has seen a tree fall they've heard a sound. Observing and detecting sound is totally passive. The presence of a person doesn't cause sound that otherwise wouldn't exist.

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You only have data for when someone is present. All the rest is hand waving and conjecture!


And how do you know I don't vanish into thin air?

The screen persona known as Seraphim is actually a rather crude computer program that spews forth random statements, assertions, bombast, empty rhetoric, etc.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

You only have data for when someone is present. All the rest is hand waving and conjecture!


And how do you know I don't vanish into thin air?

The screen persona known as Seraphim is actually a rather crude computer program that spews forth random statements, assertions, bombast, empty rhetoric, etc.

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My whole life I've been monitoring this question. I've had cameras and recording devices in every major forest in the world and have captured thousands of falling trees on them. They all made a sound

Now, stop being silly :p

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

The screen persona known as Seraphim is actually a rather crude computer program that spews forth random statements, assertions, bombast, empty rhetoric, etc.

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Thanks for that. We've been monitoring this bot for some time now, and now with this confirmation will be banning it shortly.

You bots out there let me offer some advice - don't flash your hand even if it's just an off-topic forum!

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Originally Posted by billyjeff2

Back in my college days I took a number of philosophy courses. One of the questions we studied had to do with the age old question of whether, if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it, does it makes a noise? I ended up convinced it does not.
As my professor would say: "Care to discuss?"

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Only if it doesn't fall in a vacuum.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

Now, stop being silly :p

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It's not silly at all.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

My whole life I've been monitoring this question. I've had cameras and recording devices in every major forest in the world and have captured thousands of falling trees on them. They all made a sound

Now, stop being silly :p

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And I would imagine the way you confirmed your finding was that you listened to the recordings, thereby, once again bringing in the human element necessary for confirming whether or not a falling tree made any sound. Sic semper erat, et sic semper erit.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

And I would imagine the way you confirmed your finding was that you listened to the recordings, thereby, once again bringing in the human element necessary for confirming whether or not a falling tree made any sound. Sic semper erat, et sic semper erit.

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Wrong again. I used a computer to analyze the data totally removing the human element. I even had a computer interpret the data that was analyzed by the other computer.

I win!

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6...9908040hq6.jpg

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Originally Posted by gregs656

It's not silly at all.

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Yes it is, and Craig is just trying to mess with me. I've already vanquished him once, and I'll do it again if necessary:mace:

:roflmao

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

Wrong again.I used a computer to analyze the data totally removing the human element. I even had a computer interpret the data that was analyzed by the other computer.

I tried!

http://www.dailydemotivators.com/pics/failure.jpg

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Sorry kid, but the fact that YOU, a human, used the computer, once again just backs up my initial claims.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

Sorry kid, but the fact that YOU, a human, used the computer, once again just backs up my initial claims.

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I win.. Because I win

Sound = Capable of Being heard

DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE HEARD...

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Originally Posted by billyjeff2

Back in my college days I took a number of philosophy courses. One of the questions we studied had to do with the age old question of whether, if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it, does it makes a noise? I ended up convinced it does not.
As my professor would say: "Care to discuss?"

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Why wouldn't the tree make a noise hitting the ground?

Why would it make a different noise if there was human ears within hearing distance?

Michael

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

Sound = Capable of Being heard

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So if it's too quiet to be heard, it's not a sound?

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

So if it's too quiet to be heard, it's not a sound?

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Of course not... There are no sounds being made outside of my range of hearing. The world revolves around me, so if I can't hear/see it nothing happened.

Dr. Doolittle said the animals in the forest hear every tree fall, and they are more than a little upset at the arrogance of humans that think they are the only ones can detect sound. :p

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

Sound = Capable of Being heard

DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE HEARD...

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Well that's good, because I've stopped listening!

:)

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

Well that's good, because I've stopped listening!

:)

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Obviously :roflmao

Way back about page 7 I got tired of reading all the banter that was going on between a couple of members so this may have been address and I haven't experienced it. (Relative to me the pages I didn't read don't exist. However, there is evidence to suggest that they do. My observation of the page numbers suggest that there is a lot of information that I didn't read so forgive me if you experienced those additional pages and they do exist from your observance.)

The original question is whether the tree makes a noise. Sound and noise are not the same. If we listen to a Mozart opera, we hear a sound. It is relative whether that sound is music or noise.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

No, that just means it wasn't heard.

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I agree. The sound waves are there but not converted to sound by one's ear drum. In this case the question is whether the sound waves were converted to sound. I.e., sound and sound waves are two different closely related experiences. The deaf man may feel the sound waves but be unable to convert them into sound.

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Originally Posted by bbshriver

I took some introductory acoustics classes in college and my take is that it would producs sound in the sense that sound-waves are produced, however I think in order to classify as noise it must be heard. So sound yes, noise no.

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Your last statement should actually be: "So sound waves yes, noise no."

Noise is relative to the one who hears it as in my example of the opera. To some it is beautiful music or beautiful sounds. To some it is just noise and is irritating to hear. In other words, noise is a subset of sound.

On a similar philosophical preponderance is this: Did the Big Bang actually make a Bang? No, because a bang is a set of sound waves or some other type of wave and as was pointed out early in this thread sound waves, and other types of waves, do not exist in the vacuum of space. Since there was no one there to experience, did it happen? This is one event that did not have to be observed to have happened. Also, if 99 trees falling make a sound to the observer and one didn't, the statement that trees falling make a sound is true but has an exception, as does every rule. The one tree making no sound does not disprove the other 99 events. Sorry if I am rambling or making no sence. It is lunch time and I am hungry. Or maybe I am just experiencing hunger. LOL

Similarly, the Star Trek movies and set of spin-off series are usually based on the laws of physics, but in the movie Star Trek, the Undiscovered Country the shock wave from the explosion on Praxis would not have existed due to the laws of physics in the vacuum of space and would not have impacted the space ship.

Noise can be defined as "sound of any kind" the nuanced definitions that you got into not withstanding.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

Sound = Capable of Being heard

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So if it's too quiet to be heard, it's not a sound?

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

Of course not...

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Then it is a sound even though it isn't capable of being heard since it is too quiet?

I guess "capable of being heard" requires at least one potential observer to have a capacity to hear :p

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=8 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by hoglahoo http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...s/viewpost.gif
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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=8 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by richmondesi http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...s/viewpost.gif
Sound = Capable of Being heard
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
So if it's too quiet to be heard, it's not a sound?
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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Of course not...
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Then it is a sound even though it isn't capable of being heard since it is too quiet?

I guess "capable of being heard" requires at least one potential observer to have a capacity to hear :p
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OH!

I like this!

It's like when Captain Kirk would create a logic loop when talking to an evil computer, and then smoke would start coming out..."does not compute....does not compute...."

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

create a logic loop when talking to an evil computer, and then smoke would start coming out...

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This is easy for those of us with small children

:matrix:

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

This is easy for those of us with small children

:matrix:

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But young children often resort to the "Tribble gambit" whereby they create a fast growing mess, which distracts you from being able to formulate an effective logical train of thought.

It doesn't require an observer to determine if it can be heard. It either can be or it can not be. Human observation is not required to make sound waves detectable. They either are or they are not detectable. Sound is not existential.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

They either are or they are not detectable.

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That is correct. But if the sound from the falling tree cannot be detected because nobody is around to detect it, then it cannot be heard. And if it cannot be heard, then you are saying it is not sound. So then the falling tree did not make a sound

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

That is correct. But if the sound from the falling tree ..... So then the falling tree did not make a sound

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What??

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

What??

James.

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My sentiment exactly!

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

That is correct. But if the sound from the falling tree cannot be detected because nobody is around to detect it, then it cannot be heard. And if it cannot be heard, then you are saying it is not sound. So then the falling tree did not make a sound

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just because it isn't heard does not make it incapable of being heard. Remember my recording devices and the innumerable animals that also can detect sound? Besides sound doesn't take a passive observance to make it sound. When sound becomes detected, it is heard. If it isn't heard it doesn't cease to he sound.

You know, I have been thinking more about this. If a tree falls in the forest, it must not have been sound. So, whether anyone is there or not, it was never sound in the first place!! It was a trick question all along!!!

James.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

If it isn't heard it doesn't cease to he sound.

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But if it cannot be heard, you say it ceases to be sound. And if nobody is around to hear it, it cannot be heard!

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

But if it cannot be heard, you say it ceases to be sound. And if nobody is around to hear it, it cannot be heard!

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The sound waves are capable of being detected irrespective of if someone is there to detect it or not. They do not have to have someone or something there to detect them to be detectable. Even at that, they may be in a frequency that a human can detect but a dog can. That doesn't mean that the sound doesn't exist. There are trillions of nuetrinos going all through our bodies (traveling in and out) that we can not see or detect in any way, but the fact that we don't observe/recognize that it is happening doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

Fwiw, I've seen documentaries where cameras were left in forest and they picked up the sounds from fallen trees. No one was there, and predictably sounds were made. It's not as nuanced a question as we might think.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

The sound waves are capable of being detected

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Not if nobody wants to bother with trying to detect them. Who would care? It's obvious that if someone sets out to detect them, he or she will

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

The sound waves are capable of being detected irrespective of if someone is there to detect it or not. They do not have to have someone or something there to detect them to be detectable. Even at that, they may be in a frequency that a human can detect but a dog can. That doesn't mean that the sound doesn't exist. There are trillions of nuetrinos going all through our bodies (traveling in and out) that we can not see or detect in any way, but the fact that we don't observe/recognize that it is happening doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

Fwiw, I've seen documentaries where cameras were left in forest and they picked up the sounds from fallen trees. No one was there, and predictably sounds were made. It's not as nuanced a question as we might think.

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Highly suspect data here.

So, how often do trees just happen to fall? Not very. How long does the battery last in a video camera? Not very long. The chances of a recording device being in the right place, at the right time, seeing the tree falling, of it's own accord?

Or, did the camera not actually "see" the tree falling, only the sound it made? In which case, there is no evidence at to what actually made the sound. It may well have been a bear, doing what bears are famous for doing in the woods....
I'm calling shenanagins on that documentary!