Refuted lie. :nono: listening skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
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Refuted lie. :nono: listening skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
The OP had it in this context, which matches up with what you claim as hard evidence:Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
The *ahem* lie has not been refuted, simply attempted to be explained based on inferred information.Quote:
dark matter is a theoretical form of matter that is undetectable by its emitted radiation, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter
Gravitational lensing is occuring around the Pinto star cluster. That is a proveable fact.
That the gravitational lensing itself is caused by dark matter, or that dark matter itself actually exists is not a proveable fact.
Yeah, I always thought that seven-legged spider was plain douchebaggery. How low can somebody stoop to withhold a leg! And then claim it was an honest mistake. I'd rather be lil brother than a 7 legged spider!Quote:
Originally Posted by richmondesi
Sorry, fixed the broken link... Yeah, I agree with you!Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
:medvl: Equivocation. Another lie. "Say good-night, Gracie".
:( I really do agree with him... Good-night Gracie :overkill:Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
Wait a second!Quote:
Originally Posted by richmondesi
Just because a Canuck and a Tabac hater agree on their delusions I am thus vanquished?
Truth by blatant assertion does not a fact make.
We were agreeing on our little side conversation. I'm not getting into dark matter. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Sure it does. If you have the means you can make the same observations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
They came up with the idea of dark matter from observations of the universe.
Prayer has nothing like that. In fact I remember a study that showed praying for sick people did nothing.
Why do you call it a delusion? Do you have any evidence that any of the claims are untrue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
I could probably dig up the medical reports listing the fertility test results that said my wife and I were infertile. You, me, and anyone else interested can also make an observation of my two children. They exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCshaver
So does the gravitational lensing around the Pinto star cluster. Yes, I can observe it, so can you. But what caused the gravitational lensing? Based on the current understanding of gravity based on the calculated mass of the stars in that cluster, it should not exhibit that strong a lensing effect. So, either there exists dark matter, or perhaps the gravity calculations themselves are in error at that scale? At the quantum level, inside atoms and such there is a completely different set of rules of attraction, repulsion, etc than exists at a larger scale, right?
To further my proposition that the calculations themselves may be in error:
Stuff
In the first instance, they had to re-think what they had previously been observing.Quote:
Now, you might be wondering how dark energy can be unknown and yet account for almost three fourths of everything. The answer lies in the very complicated math behind the basic models of cosmology. Until astronomer Edwin Hubble found that the universe was actually in motion and expanding rather than the static place scientists thought it was, there was no need to consider anything as exotic as an invisible force that pushes galaxies apart. But it was possible in Einstein’s general relativity equations which could account for an expanding or contracting universe. To make sure that all of the cosmological models in these equations stayed static, Einstein added a Λ (lambda) variable in his formulas which gave energy to theoretical empty space, the so-called cosmological constant
In Einstien's case, he simply added a fudge factor (he really was a genius!:))
You will also see that these same theorists claim that not the world, but the universe itself is flat!
http://worldofweirdthings.com/wp-con...e_universe.jpg
:nj
That's not repeatable evidence though. Anyone can look at the evidence for dark matter and the math. They can reproduce the same results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Not so for prayer. When you start looking at the results of prayer they line up with random chance.
Dark Matter is the answer you'll get from science now. If they find evidence it's something else then they'll update their theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
I don't see how any of that showed that the calculations may be in error.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
In fact I'm not even sure why you're trying so hard to show that the idea
of dark matter is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCshaver
I believe Han Solo has the answer:
Quote:
Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny! It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
Wouldn't that answer equally well for the existence of God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelP
Which is essentially my point made in the OP:
Quote:
So, scientifically speaking, dark matter is about as observable as the presence of God?
That still doesn't answer why you're so interested in showing that the idea of dark matter is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCshaver
I'm not necessarily saying it's "wrong" I'm saying it is only circumstantially observable at best.
Well that's in the definition of dark matter:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Dark matter is a theoretical form of matter that is undetectable by its emitted radiation, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter.
It may be dark, it may be light, but does it really matter? Is gravity of any real consequence to things other than, oh, apples? After all the universe is continuing to expand. Wouldn't one expect that after billions and billions of years of supposedly pulling things together that gravity actually would be starting to pull things together? Or is it like corporate executives, the cosmos just does things its way regardless of how us little folks think it ought to behave, lambda or no lambda?
:confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCshaver
Which was also in my OP:
theoretical
undetectable
presence can be inferred
So, we're back to page #1!:)
There is still a difference between the two tho: science changes as our knowledge advances and our knowledge advances through observation of the world around us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
I'm not saying that the science side of the debate holds the ultimate truth, I personally think that both sides attack the same problem from different angles. As usual in those cases, the extremes on both sides miss the big picture completely. The world isn't binary...
It's still more observable then the presence of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
That is quite debateable (see pages 1-15....).Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCshaver
:)
EDIT: And for that matter have you, yourself tried looking for the presence of either one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelP
Ther world isn't binary, and the universe is only 4.5% observable, so there is alot of "unknown" out there.
Again?!?! It is very simple: you can detect the gravitational field, but not the electromagnetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Once you want to blur it to philosophy the way you are trying everything you know is theoretical, undetectable, and its presence can be inferred.
Toss a coin, what do you infer from the way it falls?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Well, when I toss a coin, the fact that it falls downwards after reaching apogee, indicates the strong pull from the invisible, theoretical dark matter contained in the floor.
It's quite obvious;)
And don't try and besmirch my argument by saying it's purely philosophical, as on the other side (of the coin) the arguments for dark matter are purely theoretical.
So there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Let me ask you a question:
Have they discovered any evidence of dark matter located somewhere other than near another astronomical object?
Sure you can debate it but the conclusion is the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Either one? God and dark matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
I don't have the equipment to view the effects of dark matter.
What am I supposed to be looking for when you say God? Everyone seems to have their own definition and "evidence" of God.
And which God should I be looking for?
So, in regards to dark matter, you are going on faith?Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCshaver
Faith in what? That dark matter exists?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Dark Matter could exist or not it doesn't really matter. It's just a way to explain what they are observing. Why would I have faith in one theory over another?
If someone comes up with a better explanation it won't affect me at all.
I guess you're trying to compare this to religious faith but they aren't comparable at all.
Quite right.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCshaver
One uses scientific theories to explain something it can't see or directly observe, the other uses religious philosophies to explain something it can't see or directly observe.
No comparrison.
The problem is that religious faith doesn't care about evidence. Science is all about evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Dark Matter has specific qualities that can be tested.
The idea of God does not. Any that people come up with always fail scientific scrutiny.
Not comparable at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCshaver
Who says religious faith doesn't care about evidence? I wouldn't have any faith whatsoever if I lacked anything with which to back it up in my own experience!
Yes, dark matter has specific qualities, most appealing of which is that it fills in nicely the gaps in the current theories about how the universe is put together.
Is gravity what holds an atom together? Why don't those electrons go flying off?
All religions claim to have evidence. If the "evidence" isn't in support of the religious faith then it's ignored. The "evidence" for other faiths is ignored. That's not caring about evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Of course....why would they come up with the idea if it didn't explain something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
I think I may be on to a new scientific theory! Move aside anti-matter and dark matter, now we have "doesn't really matter"!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCshaver
It might be there, it might not be there....yet, clearly observable in everyday life:
Q: What causes the planets to orbit around the sun?Quote:
"Hmm...should I wear the blue shirt? Or the red shirt? Hey I know...it doesn't really matter!"
A: Doesn't really matter.
Q: Why is the sky blue?
A: Doesn't really matter
Q: What causes gravity?
A: Doesn't really matter
Q: What caused the Big Bang?
A: Doesn't really matter
Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
A: Doesn't really matter
It is the Alpha and Omega of scientific theories! Unassailable, thoroughly theoretical, beyond comprehension of even the most egg-headed of mathemeticians.
Peer reviewed through 15+ pages of SRP discussion, I think all of you must agree that the majority of what we have been talking about doesn't really matter.
So, remember people, only 4.6% of the universe is matter, the rest-- doesn't really matter!
Move aside Barack, and Al Gore, the next Nobel Prize is all mine!
So we can only account for 4.6% of the stuff the universe is made of? Maybe somebody's scale is mis-calibrated? :confused: Or maybe everyone is fleeing the really big, bad, 95.4% black hole. And this could add validity to the everything is still expanding theory.
:beer2:
I would think you'd prefer "God did it".Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Why not 'God made it fall that way'? They are perfectly equivalent at the level of detail you're content to live with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
You know you have to define 'near' a bit more precisely :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
If god's presence is everywhere, why wouldn't the dark matter's presence be everywhere too. And just like (after some trickery with so called photons) your brain concludes that the single steps in the sand are good enough, the dark matter is only detectable when it wishes to be detected.
It all boils down to how much you want to know, and I may or may not mean it in the biblical sense...