America Rising

A lot of good points made, however, I would say that if you look below the surface of many of these issues that most have referred to, the problems begin where the government comes in. Where does the issue of taxes stem from...government. Who's in bed with what/whoever we've mentioned here creating legislation that benefits what/whoever at our expense...government. Who has created systems to automatically drain you of your income in the form of taxes and has mismanaged those systems and turned them into something they were never intended to be at the time of creation; those same systems that they say are now, or will soon fail and of which they now propose a new system of reduced benefit and yet higher taxation to correct the system they caused to fail...government.

You want to complain about big business...the real problem is a/several politican(s) creating legislation to to the terms, benefit of and result in the very things referred to. Take one issue...not being able to purchase health insurance across state lines...where did that come from...not insurance companies...politicans working to the benefit of insurances companies.

Finally, if there has ever been an example of who these people are representing, this is it...and it isn't us. These people vote party, not state/constituent interest...they sell their vote to business or each other for deals, ins, power, appointments to committees, ideology...not lend their vote to your interest. I've never seen such a blatant finger raised to the people in my life, no matter what issue you refer to, no matter what your leaning in this conversation...you must admit that...and that, is the problem...in my humble opinion.

Ignoring constitutionality for a moment, I think the major point is not so much that governmental programs cannot run efficiently, but that based on proof of current programs, you have no confidence that the US government can do so. Is that correct?

I suspect this has to do with how the US constitution was built and how the political arena has evolved. Our constitution grants the government the right to organize socialized medicine, so that is one side of the problem out of the way. And the other aspect, I think, is that the US has evolved into a 2 party system where everything is dependent on who is in power and who started something.

Ours is a true multiparty system so rather than parties being successful by being the antithesis of the other, they get to be successful by finding common ground with other parties in order to come out on top with a majority government. This is also one of the reasons that none of the more extremist parties has held a governmental position for a long time in recent history. (Not the right wings extremists, not the Kommunists, and not the environmentalists)

On top of that, Americans have a much more absolute ideal of individual freedom that does not exist over here, or at least not in the same way. Combined with the political angle I mentioned, it becomes very hard to set up a system that does work I guess.

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Originally Posted by hardblues

Finally, if there has ever been an example of who these people are representing, this is it...and it isn't us. These people vote party, not people...they sell their vote to business or each other for deals, ins, power, appointments to committees, ideology...not you. I've never seen such a blatant finger raised to the people in my life, no matter what issue you refer to, not matter what your leaning in this conversation...you must admit that...and that, is the problem...in my humble opinion.

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I could not agree with you more. As most folks here know, I am pretty blazingly liberal when it comes to social issues, pretty staunchly in defense of individual liberties when it comes to "rights" of all sorts, and in general, mistrusting of anyone who claims to represent ME. It is becoming clearer and clearer that the vast majority of BOTH sides are simply power and money machines, going about it in different ways. To keep themselves in power, they have taken emotional stands on issues that appeal to the voters they choose to court.

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Originally Posted by BigIan

tis the same here, car tax (varies according to vehicle mine is nearly £300 per year) council tax (varies according to building normaly a couple of hundred quid per year. VAT 17.5% tax on pretty much every thing we buy.
fuel tax is 60% plus many others.

IMHO it seems like the us gov is trying to make changes moddeled on systems that work else where in the world.
Now before i get branded a "commie" i`ll leave.

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Hey Ian. I wasn't directing any harsh comments at you. It's the nanny state that gets my blood boiling. Please don't leave on my account. :)

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Originally Posted by CableDawg

I respectfully disagree. The Great Recession started under Bush and the Democrats. Congress writes the budgets, the President signs it. They've maintained control since 2006.

I find fault with both parties. I see no difference. I'm not one who believes that in 2010 the Republicans are going to take over. If they do, it's just going to be more of the same anyway. Every time those clowns get together they weaken the nation.

As far as taking back the country, that's a pipe dream. So yes, it's laughable.

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The great recession (depression) started December 23, 1913 the day the federal reserve was established. Since then the dollar has lost 95% of it's value. END THE FED!

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Originally Posted by Miner123

As far as health care goes. Our country is bankrupt. We are borrowing around a billion dollars a day from China. We are losing jobs at a record rate. How on earth does the government plan on paying for this? I have no more to give. Sooner or later you have to pull your head out of the sand and get real.

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I agree that the government is involved in many areas where it doesn't belong and that taxes are too high in general, but if we lift the burden of the $13,000 the average family health plan costs from the insured and their employer (employers can hire more people if they have reduced health care costs), and use a portion of it to fund a government health plan(administered by the private sector), we will ultimately save money. I've seen estimates that in 10 years the avg. cost of a family plan will be $24,000. We simply can't sustain the current system. Health care is one place the government does belong. The Medicare system could be better run, but it still provides pretty decent care for less money than the private plans.

We also need to revamp the delivery model of care. For example, there are too many providers of services in some pleaces and too few in others. When a hospital closes, everybody screams bloody murder because they want a hospital in their community, but they don't want to pay into the system to keep it open. We have too many MRI machines, and this drives their usage. All of this needs to be addressed. We have painful choices to make, but nobody has the political will to push them forward.

Jordan

Referencing constitutionality in general terms, (what is or is not in keeping with the constitution), is a subject that has been, is now being and will in the future be argued over by scholars...and whoever has the power or the biggest microphone at them moment, will win the day, only to have others come to another conclusion down the line. Whether the constitution allows the creation of socialized medicine, (a program), that fact, true or not, does not necessarily say that the innumerable factors contained within whatever this general system will turn out to be are of themselves, constitutional sound/authorized...I say whatever because no one knows what they'll be voting on in it's entirety...though they've scheduling the vote, they are still hammering out the details and hedging on the definitive qualities of what they say they will ethically hold themselves to...now...you may reference that constitutional...or not...but, I think most would say it is stupid in method, but, as I said...to what end...that should be the real concern.

The processes we are recently witnessing, (healthcare plan and TARP, and the stimulus bill, and Cap and Trade, and God knows what else) are all being enacted and embraced at one time or another by both major political parties, are fundamentally destructive to the sovereignty of “We the People,” and can only result in and some would argue, already has resulted in oppressive government, (...a government big enough to give you everything is powerful enough to take away everything...). The only question of interest to future historians will be whether that tyranny turns out to be one established by intellectuals (i.e., “right-thinkers”), or of strongmen (either of the left or of the right). And even that matters little to the people, since any tyranny over us - even a “soft” tyranny - must always be eventually sustained by the exertion of force. History has shown us that...any tyranny has always taken root in the soil of righting a proported wrong...a toe-hold so to speak until strong enough to reveal the true intention.

The issues of healthcare and healthcare reform are very important, but in comparison those issues fade to insignificance. I would say it is important not to become distracted by the passions of the day (even if those passions are related to almighty healthcare), but, to focus instead on the more transcendent question that hopefully begs your attention.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Ignoring constitutionality for a moment, I think the major point is not so much that governmental programs cannot run efficiently, but that based on proof of current programs, you have no confidence that the US government can do so. Is that correct?

I suspect this has to do with how the US constitution was built and how the political arena has evolved. Our constitution grants the government the right to organize socialized medicine, so that is one side of the problem out of the way. And the other aspect, I think, is that the US has evolved into a 2 party system where everything is dependent on who is in power and who started something.

Ours is a true multiparty system so rather than parties being successful by being the antithesis of the other, they get to be successful by finding common ground with other parties in order to come out on top with a majority government. This is also one of the reasons that none of the more extremist parties has held a governmental position for a long time in recent history. (Not the right wings extremists, not the Kommunists, and not the environmentalists)

On top of that, Americans have a much more absolute ideal of individual freedom that does not exist over here, or at least not in the same way. Combined with the political angle I mentioned, it becomes very hard to set up a system that does work I guess.

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I've marked some quoted text in bold that illustrates one major problem.

When I was growing up, my grandfather used to tell me "...you can't please everyone all the time."

For some reason, modern day America has forgotten this.

Apparently utilitarianism is a lost concept.

Bruno is correct. It is a hard system to set up. Since America is supposedly run by the 'people', it should be a no-brainer to set the system to accommodate most people.

There are extremes in any situation and someone with a firm grasp of the system should know this and incorporate this into the solution.

Personally, I feel that the American govt. has ignored a large section of the system (the end users) and has for some time. This is an accepted mindset and this takes years to develop. This did not happen overnight. I do not have faith in this current administration to 'fix' these healthcare issues in one swell foop.

These issues have taken years to develop.

Therefore, a quick fix does not exist.

A quick fix spells disaster to an already questionable system.

Implementing a long term solution is not an overnight process.

To me, this healthcare proposal is not properly thought out and leaves many loopholes and cracks that will take years to find ... and more years to fix.

Honestly, I feel that the major problem in America is Education. It seems that most people today don't actually learn boring things like 'ethics' ... they just memorize the material long enough to pass the class.

I question the validity of some 'educated' people due to their lack of applied knowledge; certainly in cases like this.

Lets face it, money (and a twisted rationale) speaks the loudest in America these days.

Anyone who believes that the government is going to save the day should start stocking up on Zeepk straight razors.

As you must believe, in spite of what you know about the Zeepk, it's going to be a great shaver. :(

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Originally Posted by honedright

Anyone who believes that the government is going to save the day should start stocking up on Zeepk straight razors.

As you must believe, in spite of what you know about the Zeepk, it's going to be a great shaver. :(

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So who is going to save the day? Private Insurance companies?