Aristotle's Warning

Normally I avoid these threads...

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Originally Posted by freyguy

I'm talking about mooching off of the CEO's who sip age scotch and smoke cigars in their office, while thousands of the little people like you and me are fed B.S. about how hard work and strong effort could have us sitting in the same position

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What's wrong with sipping scotch or smoking cigars?
The idea that the owners of a company are robbing the employees is wrong. No one is forcing people to work for a company. People are willing to work for the pay. If they weren't, the company would have to pay more. Is that wrong? If you believe it is, then you should sell me the best razor in your collection for $5. It is the same economic principle.
CEOs get paid what they do, because their companies make a lot of money off of decisions they make. Granted, there have been some recent examples of poor CEOs, but I could also show you examples of union workers that should be fired for basically stealing a paycheck from the company. You can't make broad generalizations from looking at a few examples.
You couldn't convince me for a second that Jack Welch wasn't worth his salary. You'll never convince me that Stan Gadek isn't worth his.
I am not a CEO, far from it in fact. But, I don't get upset with someone that does better than I do.

HNSB, our freyguy assumes an awful lot. For instance, he doesn't realize he is speaking with a man ( me ) who spends 10 to 20 dollars on a 25 oz bottle of beer on a semi daily basis and may spend as much as 200 dollars on a knife every 60 or so days. This same man had trouble paying for his own way in life not even 10 to 11 years ago.

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Originally Posted by freyguy

Wow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised to hear the old, "if you don't like us, leave" response. What a cop out. I was born and raised in the U.S.A. A proud american who believes in what the star spangled banner represents. Who believes we have begun to lose sight of what our flag was made to stand for all those years ago. Our nation was founded by a bunch of loud mouth, argumentative, rebels like me, who thought there was more to be had then the status que offered. Our greatness as a nation was achieved by a complete upheaval of what "worked" and the nation was reborn in a likeness we saw fit. I believe that is what is happening today.

Why wouldn't I leave America, cause I'm American. It is in my blood, in our history to stand up and argue for what we believe in.

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I didn't say "if you don't like us, leave". It's not a cop out to think two mutually exclusive views of economics need to occur in the same geography. What if states tried to leave the union over this issue?

If you look at world polices, people advocating what you are, they aren't in the minority - they aren't a patriotic-rebels; they are the new status que!

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Originally Posted by freyguy

1% OF THE U.S. POPULATION CONTROL MORE WEALTH THEN THE LOWER 99%, and guess what, they aren't sharing it with us. In fact, it would seem they are pulling the wool over our eyes so they can continue to be greedy pigs.

Although the beginning of the health care reform will be a bit shaking, and believe me, I'm not thrilled with the idea of being penalized for not having health coverage, but the reform does one thing in nothing else. IT TAKES SOME POWER AWAY FROM SOME OF THOSE GREEDY PEOPLE, namely PHARMACEUTICAL/ MEDICAL COMPANIES. Rather then fighting to get their services and benefits, they will have to work for our business.

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As I see it as an outsider, greed and its consequences are the main problem in American society.

Way I see it, the new health care reform does not take away ENOUGH of the power of pharmaceutical & medical companies. I think this means that healthcare will continue on being more expensive than everywhere else on the globe.

Good luck to you all.

Oh my. I take it none of you have ever read Aristotle for yourselves?
Aristotle...wow. Using Aristotle as an example for modern democracy...breath taking. This guy knows his audience, eh?

Aristotle was most decidedly AGAINST democracies. His favorite form of government was an Aristocracy...he equated social status with human value. A slave in Athens was by definition without human worth, for a truly worthy human could never become a slave. Social stratification as a definition of human value...Aristocracy. So, you know that government that our sainted founding fathers, those guys who shed their blood to feed the tree of liberty, founded? That is an EVIL form of government. They were traitors to a much nobler form of government...an aristocracy.

By agreeing with this article, gentlemen, you deny freedom, liberty, and equality: you do, in fact, align yourselves with the traditions that are antithetical to the founding of the United States, and were so utterly abhorrent to the founding fathers that many of you so revere. Aristocracy, the idea of inherent born nobility and inequality, and the class stratification (and yes, even slavery) that it entails.

Throwing Ayn Rand into the mix clearly tells us, this article is pure apologetics for a new aristocracy, where "wealth" has replaced "birth" as the measure of human value...

Repugnant. Utterly repugnant.

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Originally Posted by JimR

Throwing Ayn Rand into the mix clearly tells us, this article is pure apologetics for a new aristocracy, where "wealth" has replaced "birth" as the measure of human value...

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I don't see how that connection is made with Ayn Rand.
Most of the "villians" in her work are extremely wealthy people.
She places value on the mind, not wealth. The mind is merely a means to wealth.
Her work makes it very clear that she was opposed to unearned wealth.

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Originally Posted by HNSB

No one is forcing people to work for a company. People are willing to work for the pay. If they weren't, the company would have to pay more.

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All this is very nice in principle but I'm sorry, that's just not how things work in the real world.

It's true that no one is forcing people to work for a given company. However, often people don't have a choice, because they need the income and there are no better-pay alternatives for them.

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Originally Posted by JMS

HNSB, our freyguy assumes an awful lot.

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:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

Kinda like assuming that everyone in favor of health care reform is a non-working lazy citizen looking for a free ride?

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Originally Posted by JMS

The rich should support us all, cradle to grave. Why should I even strive for a better life when there is the idle rich who can pay for all my needs. This is why we need government, to force the greedy rich bastards to pay their fare share...so the rest of us don't have to.

Working and paying your own way is so passe, don't you know? The nerve of some people! Not even willing to wipe my ass after a good sh!t:rant:

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Originally Posted by commiecat

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

Kinda like assuming that everyone in favor of health care reform is a non-working lazy citizen looking for a free ride?

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Did you make that assumption? I know I didn't.

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Originally Posted by decraew

All this is very nice in principle but I'm sorry, that's just not how things work in the real world.

It's true that no one is forcing people to work for a given company. However, often people don't have a choice, because they need the income and there are no better-pay alternatives for them.

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You're right. The kid behind the counter at McDonalds should get paid $120,000 a year. McDonald's is a multi-billion dollar corporation. They can afford it.
(this is EXACTLY what you're saying, just an extreme example...)

At what point did a company become slave to the employee? Companies don't have an obligation to ensure their employees can make a living off of the salary. They have a job available and offer a salary. Take it or leave it.
If the employee wants more, they should find a way to EARN more. It's not a matter of need, it's a matter of value.
My employer doesn't give half a crap about whether or not I need more money (or whether they are giving me more than I need). I am paid based upon the value of the service that I provide.
I worked my ass off to get from living below the poverty level to where I'm at. I guess I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that want more but aren't willing to work for it.

You'll note that I've said nothing about the healthcare thing. I don't really care about it.
I just get really torqued off when it comes up that every company in America is screwing their employees. That is absolutely not true. The thing that a lot of people miss is that need never justifies a salary. Value does.