Thread: Aristotle's Warning

American Thinker: Aristotle's Warning

Excellent...many would do well to read this.

I like the picture of democracy painted by Aristotle, however, I think comparing that to modern day America is like comparing apples and oranges.

I agree that although we are "all born equally free" that there are some who are more skilled and talented, and deserving than others. And there in lies my issue with what I see these days.

There once was a time when a skilled craftsman could be recognized for the quality of work, respected for the time and education it took to become that skilled, and be paid accordingly. Those skilled craftsman have been bought out by big corporations, those precious goods are now machine made, and the days of skilled machine operators seem to be numbered.

Those skilled craftsmen, talented individuals, and deep thinkers are now left to be hired by big company's like Target, Kmart, and Walmart. They are under paid, over worked, mistreated, and rarely appreciated by patrons or upper management alike.

1% OF THE U.S. POPULATION CONTROL MORE WEALTH THEN THE LOWER 99%, and guess what, they aren't sharing it with us. In fact, it would seem they are pulling the wool over our eyes so they can continue to be greedy pigs.

Although the beginning of the health care reform will be a bit shaking, and believe me, I'm not thrilled with the idea of being penalized for not having health coverage, but the reform does one thing in nothing else. IT TAKES SOME POWER AWAY FROM SOME OF THOSE GREEDY PEOPLE, namely PHARMACEUTICAL/ MEDICAL COMPANIES. Rather then fighting to get their services and benefits, they will have to work for our business.

My belief is that Obama is taking control of the reigns, snatching them from greedy out stretched palms, and in tern passing them down to us, the every day person.

Change can be scary, but it can be very positive as well. DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM WITH A PERSON NOT BEING DENIED HEALTH COVERAGE IF THEY HAVE A PRE- EXISTING CONDITION? IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH NOT BEING DROPPED FROM YOUR HEALTH PLAN IF YOU DEVELOP A CONDITION? WOULD YOU BE UPSET IF YOUR BUSINESS HAD TO PROVIDE YOU WITH HEALTH COVERAGE? HOW ABOUT 50% OF THOSE NAME BRAND DRUGS YOU TAKE TO BE HEALTHY? Those all sound like good things to me.

Originally Posted by freyguy

I like the picture of democracy painted by Aristotle, however, I think comparing that to modern day America is like comparing apples and oranges.

I agree that although we are "all born equally free" that there are some who are more skilled and talented, and deserving than others. And there in lies my issue with what I see these days.

There once was a time when a skilled craftsman could be recognized for the quality of work, respected for the time and education it took to become that skilled, and be paid accordingly. Those skilled craftsman have been bought out by big corporations, those precious goods are now machine made, and the days of skilled machine operators seem to be numbered.

Those skilled craftsmen, talented individuals, and deep thinkers are now left to be hired by big company's like Target, Kmart, and Walmart. They are under paid, over worked, mistreated, and rarely appreciated by patrons or upper management alike.

1% OF THE U.S. POPULATION CONTROL MORE WEALTH THEN THE LOWER 99%, and guess what, they aren't sharing it with us. In fact, it would seem they are pulling the wool over our eyes so they can continue to be greedy pigs.

Although the beginning of the health care reform will be a bit shaking, and believe me, I'm not thrilled with the idea of being penalized for not having health coverage, but the reform does one thing in nothing else. IT TAKES SOME POWER AWAY FROM SOME OF THOSE GREEDY PEOPLE, namely PHARMACEUTICAL/ MEDICAL COMPANIES. Rather then fighting to get their services and benefits, they will have to work for our business.

My belief is that Obama is taking control of the reigns, snatching them from greedy out stretched palms, and in tern passing them down to us, the every day person.

Change can be scary, but it can be very positive as well. DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM WITH A PERSON NOT BEING DENIED HEALTH COVERAGE IF THEY HAVE A PRE- EXISTING CONDITION? IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH NOT BEING DROPPED FROM YOUR HEALTH PLAN IF YOU DEVELOP A CONDITION? WOULD YOU BE UPSET IF YOUR BUSINESS HAD TO PROVIDE YOU WITH HEALTH COVERAGE? HOW ABOUT 50% OF THOSE NAME BRAND DRUGS YOU TAKE TO BE HEALTHY? Those all sound like good things to me.

So you disagree with Aristotle because the wealth has shifted from skilled craftsmen to skilled businessmen? And if that's what you meant, how does that invalidate Aristotle's observations?

"In democracies the rich should be spared. Not only should their estates be safe from the threat of redistribution: the produce of the estates should be equally secure; and the practice of sharing it out, which has insensibly developed under some constitutions, should not be allowed."

"Demagogues are always dividing the city into two, and waging war against the rich. Their proper policy is the very reverse: they should always profess to be speaking in defense of the rich."

I'm not sure I understand why one or the other "skills" makes a difference. Reasonable to assume that at one time those craftsmen you admire had underlings with talent who were overlooked and abused too.

You are so wrong Scott. The rich should support us all, cradle to grave. Why should I even strive for a better life when there is the idle rich who can pay for all my needs. This is why we need government, to force the greedy rich bastards to pay their fare share...so the rest of us don't have to.

Working and paying your own way is so passe, don't you know? The nerve of some people! Not even willing to wipe my ass after a good sh!t

I wasn't speaking of businessmen. The guy who runs my local deli. I'm referring to the skilled liars, con artists and thieves we now call businessmen. On a daily basis we are lied to and deceived so we will empty our wallets and fill the pockets of someone else. Bernie Madoff was called a businessman until he got caught, right?

"spare the rich." that sounds like something a rich person would say. What it boils down to is that I'm not alright with 1% of the population having that much political and financial control over 99%. It just doesn't seem right. As statistics would have it, I'm sure I'm among many members of SRP who fall into that 99%.

What we're talking about is redistribution of wealth. Personally I'm ok with getting a bigger piece of the pie. I think peoples fears and concerns could be summed up in the saying "too many chiefs and not enough indians". Well we trusted our money and well being to a very select group of chiefs, played good little indians, and we've seen how poorly that worked out. If we each got a bigger cut, and acted intelligently and responsibly, considering the good of the "we" instead of the "I" then spreading the wealth around might not be such a bad idea, IMHO.

Then again, we have warnings on our coffee cups that read "caution, maybe hot" and have to be reminded to refrigerate milk and orange juice via the labels. I love the U.S of A. but maybe I'm getting ahead of myself with all of this.

Originally Posted by freyguy

I wasn't speaking of businessmen. The guy who runs my local deli. I'm referring to the skilled liars, con artists and thieves we now call businessmen. On a daily basis we are lied to and deceived so we will empty our wallets and fill the pockets of someone else. Bernie Madoff was called a businessman until he got caught, right?

"spare the rich." that sounds like something a rich person would say. What it boils down to is that I'm not alright with 1% of the population having that much political and financial control over 99%. It just doesn't seem right. As statistics would have it, I'm sure I'm among many members of SRP who fall into that 99%.

What we're talking about is redistribution of wealth. Personally I'm ok with getting a bigger piece of the pie. I think peoples fears and concerns could be summed up in the saying "too many chiefs and not enough indians". Well we trusted our money and well being to a very select group of chiefs, played good little indians, and we've seen how poorly that worked out. If we each got a bigger cut, and acted intelligently and responsibly, considering the good of the "we" instead of the "I" then spreading the wealth around might not be such a bad idea, IMHO.

Then again, we have warnings on our coffee cups that read "caution, maybe hot" and have to be reminded to refrigerate milk and orange juice via the labels. I love the U.S of A. but maybe I'm getting ahead of myself with all of this.

Wow!! You don't trust those rich lying bastards but trust our government (made up of some of the richest lying bastards ) to take care of our health..and not even once thinking of picking our pockets.

Originally Posted by freyguy

I If we each got a bigger cut, and acted intelligently and responsibly, considering the good of the "we" instead of the "I" then spreading the wealth around might not be such a bad idea, IMHO.

My definition of intelligent and responsible are different than yours; how can we reconcile our differences intelligently or responsibly when we can't even come to a common meaning for the terms?

Originally Posted by freyguy

What we're talking about is redistribution of wealth

Moreover, there are already places like this that exist. If you so choose, you can even live under the power of an economic system that redistributes wealth.

Originally Posted by JMS

You are so wrong Scott. The rich should support us all, cradle to grave. Why should I even strive for a better life when there is the idle rich who can pay for all my needs. This is why we need government, to force the greedy rich bastards to pay their fare share...so the rest of us don't have to.

Working and paying your own way is so passe, don't you know? The nerve of some people! Not even willing to wipe my ass after a good sh!t

Originally Posted by JMS

Wow!! You don't trust those rich lying bastards but trust our government (made up of some of the richest lying bastards ) to take care of our health..and not even once thinking of picking our pockets.

I don't agree that the rich should pay our way. I'm all for striving for a better life, hence the reason I work three jobs 6 days a week, and volunteer on the 7th day for fun and my own fulfillment. I have a great distaste for people who mooch off of the hard working people of our country, but again that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I'm talking about mooching off of the CEO's who sip age scotch and smoke cigars in their office, while thousands of the little people like you and me are fed B.S. about how hard work and strong effort could have us sitting in the same position, while being paid so little, a single mother can't feed her child. Have you ever run into the glass ceiling? Do you think Joe Shmoe working the register will ever see the inside of that corporate office? Even if he managed to start climbing the ladder, he'll only get so far before that nice, well paying job is handed off to the less deserving, cousin's, brothers, uncle's, sister who is less qualified. Ever have that experience?

My pocket has already been picked. There's little doubt that both sides are lying cheats, so at the end of the day, yes, I will take the lying cheat who tells me something I like to hear. Because maybe, just maybe, part of what they said is true. and if nothing is true, at least I can go back to pretending.

now as a final thought... I general avoid political conversation, simply because no matter what your beliefs, or what you know, or think you know, no one knows what's going to happen, and our say in the matter very rarely counts for anything. The choice are made by some rich bastard on one side of the fence or the other. I.E. When the financial bail out was first proposed, we the people actually stood up and said no, and in a strange twist of fate, our cries were heard and the proposition was shot down. The next day, someone had found a back door loop hole, and managed to over turn the decision.

So with that being said, I mean no harm, nor do I mean to offend anyone or stir up arguments. I think it's best to remember why we're all here... for the LOVE OF STRAIGHT RAZORS.

Originally Posted by Spect

My definition of intelligent and responsible are different than yours; how can we reconcile our differences intelligently or responsibly when we can't even come to a common meaning for the terms?

Well said. A great philosophical question. Here's a philosophical answer: within the answer to your question lies the answer to mine.

Moreover, there are already places like this that exist. If you so choose, you can even live under the power of an economic system that redistributes wealth.

Wow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised to hear the old, "if you don't like us, leave" response. What a cop out. I was born and raised in the U.S.A. A proud american who believes in what the star spangled banner represents. Who believes we have begun to lose sight of what our flag was made to stand for all those years ago. Our nation was founded by a bunch of loud mouth, argumentative, rebels like me, who thought there was more to be had then the status que offered. Our greatness as a nation was achieved by a complete upheaval of what "worked" and the nation was reborn in a likeness we saw fit. I believe that is what is happening today.

Why wouldn't I leave America, cause I'm American. It is in my blood, in our history to stand up and argue for what we believe in.