Are We Incrementally Losing Our Freedom?

when i say fail i did in no way mean die. i meant that everyone has the right to fail. in which i meant to be lazy and suck at life and then want a handout(i hate the idea of me working hard for everything i have and someone come along and get something for free.thats something that burns me alive on the inside)..and when people come to an ER with no money or insurance the people who sacrifice some of the finer things in life to have coverage incase they get hurt or fall ill get stuck with the other guys bill in forms of higher prices....and i say that as by this new reform thats going to forced down our throats..we are slowly losing our freedoms. one peice of paper at a time
whats next after this? what will they pass to leave us without any choice on next? do we all need big brother to tell us how much coverage we need or what type?
i do agree the insurance compaines are worng for just dropping people suddenly...but then again they are in the buisness of making money not paying out..kinda like a bank if your a high risk, a loan is going to cost way more than someone who is a low risk....
what i think would of made more sense to this whole debacle is kind of what FDR did in the great depression.put people to work on fixing the infastructure of this country. this i think would be better 2 ways people would have a job and coverage while working for the government.so while your working save your money for later. 2 it would fix so many things. if you think about it look how old alot of the infastructure is that needs to be repaired or refitted with all new parts just to name a few things bridges,dams,roadways, water and sewer systems
but yea we are losing our freedoms i know the politicans have never looked out for the people just themselves...i just think its time for the people to realize this and stat looing out for #1 not everyone else
just tired of losing money out my pocket, because someone wants to fail at life, that i could be saving for when i am ready to build my house
im not trying to fight saying the bill is good bad or horrible. i am just saying that everytime big brother steps in and mandates something thats more choices we lose.i dont know how you feel about it. but i dont need the government telling me and regulating every little aspect of my life...its not the fear of this bill or whats in it. its my fear that this country is headed to socialism one bite at a time.sorry i suck at a debate and trying get a an idea across.thats one thing i have never been good at

Are we incrementally losing our freedom?

I would say no.

Given the passage of a bill that allows the government to control your right to life and includes some very vague enforcement powers that could allow it to control whatever else it wants to I would say that our freedoms are just about gone.

BAMARACING8 - Have you ever actually talked to a person who's poor, or struggling?

Why do you have this idea in your head that poor people are all lazy and failures? I bet most of them work harder than you do.

The reason they don't get anywhere? Well, one of them it is that healthcare is so expensive that when they wind up in the hospital with exhaustion, everything they've made is gone.

It's a system that only likes you if you're already rich.

Yes, you ARE saying that "failures" should die. Do you know how many people die in this country every years because they couldn't afford medical treatment? It's hundreds of thousands, at an estimate.

I don't understand why people like you live in developed countries. The reason they're developed is because we look after each other. Which is, by the way, how you got where you are. If the government and the people weren't cleaning your water for you, building your roads, and generally trying to take all of the fear and uncertainty out of your survival, you probably would have already died a long time ago.

And the people cleaning your water, building your roads, etc... they're mostly poor. The same poor people that you don't seem to care if they die.

So you want to be given everything, and give nothing back at all?

yes i have and i am not talking about the people who are in the strugle i have been there and you talk about the people cleaning the water and building roads....THATS ME
i am a waterplant operator, plumber, and fuel system mechanic...i know what its like to do shit jobs. i do them every day and just happy i have a job right now in this economy.and as a bonus for doing the dirty work i get to travel. got lucky on that part

i dont know whay you have it stuck in your head that i think the poor and those who struggle are lazy...... i just hate lazy people and laziness in general i dont care if your rich and lazy or poor and lazy get up and do something constructive i cant justify handing out my money to someone who can get off thier haunchess and go do work or in some peoples case go beat feet around town and find some work there is always something to do if you look. it may not be what you want or the best paying but there is ALWAYS something to be found

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Originally Posted by BAMARACING8

yes i have and i am not talking about the people who are in the strugle i have been there and you talk about the people cleaning the water and building roads....THATS ME
i am a waterplant operator, plumber, and fuel system mechanic...i know what its like to do shit jobs. i do them every day and just happy i have a job right now in this economy.and as a bonus for doing the dirty work i get to travel. got lucky on that part

i dont know whay you have it stuck in your head that i think the poor and those who struggle are lazy...... i just hate lazy people and laziness in general i dont care if your rich and lazy or poor and lazy get up and do something constructive i cant justify handing out my money to someone who can get off thier haunchess and go do work or in some peoples case go beat feet around town and find some work there is always something to do if you look. it may not be what you want or the best paying but there is ALWAYS something to be found

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But your ideas only hurt hard-working poor people. They do nothing to incentive-ize lazy rich people, of whom there are probably more than lazy poor people.

What you're saying isn't always possible.

I have seriously hurt myself doing work that someone my size shouldn't do - because I was poor, and I needed the money.

Well, I couldn't work for almost a year after that. If you want to tell me the fact that I couldn't feel my hands was all in my head and I'm just lazy, go ahead.

The problem is that when you're poor, doing anything to get by, you're more likely to hurt yourself and need medical care you can't afford.

So in fact, what you're proposing HURTS hard-working people. If we ran things the way you're saying, it would make more sense to be lazy. It doesn't punish the lazy at all.

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Originally Posted by MistressNomad

I have seriously hurt myself doing work that someone my size shouldn't do - because I was poor, and I needed the money.

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So you are saying that because you exceeded your capabilities and did something you shouldn't have done. I, rather than you, should be responsible for paying for your care.

Because you found a foolish employer who had you doing things you were not capable of doing we all have to pay for his foolishness? That's not freedom that lack of responsibility.

How amazingly selfish of you. Take responsibility for your own actions, your injury was a result of decisions you made. We all should have to be responsible for our own choices and actions no matter how harsh the punishment.

Freedom is being able to enjoy/suffer the consequences of our actions as much as it is being able to take those actions in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

So you are saying that because you exceeded your capabilities and did something you shouldn't have done. I, rather than you, should be responsible for paying for your care.

Because you found a foolish employer who had you doing things you were not capable of doing we all have to pay for his foolishness? That's not freedom that lack of responsibility.

How amazingly selfish of you. Take responsibility for your own actions, your injury was a result of decisions you made. We all should have to be responsible for our own choices and actions no matter how harsh the punishment.

Freedom is being able to enjoy/suffer the consequences of our actions as much as it is being able to take those actions in the first place.

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No. I'm saying we shouldn't live in a society where elements of our population get to the point where it's that, or starve to death.

How amazingly selfish of you to outright blame me for trying to feed myself when people like you are the ones who push so many dozens of millions of people in this country to that point.

Let me ask you, would you rather I have gone on welfare? Or would I be a jerk for doing that, too?

So no matter what I do, I'm a jerk because I was poor. If I didn't work, I'm a jerk. If I took whatever job I can find, I'm a jerk. If I went on welfare, I'm a jerk.

You just hate poor people. Is that it?

You people say we're lazy, and then say we're stupid when we prove that we're not? That in fact, YOU'RE the lazy ones, who want everything handed to you and want to give nothing back?

You're more than happy to accept the comfort and ease of a modern lifestyle, built on the backs of the poor, but you don't want to lend that lifestyle to anyone else? Who do you think you are?

I've been to a lot of developed countries. Even as an immigrant, I've never been to one where people still have to live like they're in some struggling 2nd tier nation - except my homeland. And it's because of people who won't admit that it's not "laziness" or "irresponsibility" that's the problem. It's their own greed.

Your greed is the problem. Not my "laziness."

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

So you are saying that because you exceeded your capabilities and did something you shouldn't have done. I, rather than you, should be responsible for paying for your care.

Because you found a foolish employer who had you doing things you were not capable of doing we all have to pay for his foolishness? That's not freedom that lack of responsibility.

How amazingly selfish of you. Take responsibility for your own actions, your injury was a result of decisions you made. We all should have to be responsible for our own choices and actions no matter how harsh the punishment.

Freedom is being able to enjoy/suffer the consequences of our actions as much as it is being able to take those actions in the first place.

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That's pretty short-sighted, Wildtim. I don't think you understand the full implications of what you're saying.

All I'm say is we make choices, and in a truely free society we can make any we choose, we suffer or enjoy the consequences of those choices.

Sometimes those choices are not good so we take risks. I'm trying to figure out why I should have to pay my hard earned money, I'm not rich either, to mitigate the risk others choose to take.

If it is a matter of some people starve while others achieve or the alternative of everyone sharing in mediocracy, I prefer to take my chances and risk starvation while having a chance at sucess for that is freedom.

It is inherent in the nature of personal responsibility that some people will not succeed and will face the ultimate price, while others succeed beyond their wildes dreams. Sounds harsh but that the way to have a society that can be great.

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

All I'm say is we make choices, and in a truely free society we can make any we choose, we suffer or enjoy the consequences of those choices.

Sometimes those choices are not good so we take risks. I'm trying to figure out why I should have to pay my hard earned money, I'm not rich either, to mitigate the risk others choose to take.

If it is a matter of some people starve while others achieve or the alternative of everyone sharing in mediocracy, I prefer to take my chances and risk starvation while having a chance at sucess for that is freedom.

It is inherent in the nature of personal responsibility that some people will not succeed and will face the ultimate price, while others succeed beyond their wildes dreams. Sounds harsh but that the way to have a society that can be great.

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You prefer to let people die because you're already feeling ok about your own situation? And you don't think that's the least bit greedy?

Our system has never been laissez fair, not even when it was first created, because previous experiments proved that doesn't work. You just wind up with another variation of a feudal system.

I don't think everyone needs to share in mediocrity. I just think people deserve the opportunity to try. If they don't succeed does this mean they deserve death?

I'm not suggesting that we go communist and give everyone the same wage and tell them what they can achieve.

All I'm suggesting is that everyone has the right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Declaration is repeated used in the Supreme Court as part of the fundamental law of the land.

If we have a means of preserving life, which simultaneously lifts financial burdens for EVERYONE, meaning they have more of their own money to put towards achieving their goals, why the hell wouldn't we?

Your take on this, in addition to being soulless, is against the ethics of the country.