Are We Incrementally Losing Our Freedom?

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Originally Posted by AnarchoPhil

hahaha

You see something that states that property rights are essential to liberty and you automatically make the assumption that it is objectivism? Well, friend, it's not. The principal of self ownership is not based in objectivism it is based on logic and reason (and some would say as I do, in Christianity). There is no reasonable argument against stating that you own yourself. A person that denies self ownership must see themselves as part of a collective... maybe a collective such as the american society? If so, you should have no problems with HCR as it is for the good of the american society and being that you have no decisions to make on your own (because you don't own yourself) but those that benefit the collective, then I congratulate you on moving your collective forward with the passing of HCR but please, there are individuals around.

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So you see yourself as property? It would appear that you do if you think you "own yourself." One may not own something that is not, inherently, property.

Me, I assert my unique-if-flawed humanity, as opposed to being a piece of chattel to be bought and sold.

You also operate from a false dichotomy, i.e. that anyone not viewing himself as property must, therefore belong to "a collective." I can reject the notion (not fact, notion) that I am nothing more than a piece of commerce, and still not be a member of some "hive."

Granted, there aren't many (any?) examples of individuals getting much done as personal property, since all of human evolution/growth/advancement is a product of individuals putting other individuals' discoveries/accomplishments to further use (e.g. the development of language, stone tools, metal tools, the development of agriculture, animal husbandry, etc., none of which was accomplished by lone pieces of property working in a vaccuum).

This is a pretty good discussion...but...lets be careful to state facts and positions without associating our facts or positions to another person...that usually becomes factless and therefore useless

It is mind boggling listening to people that are pro-choice argue about what rights we have? Interestingly enough we have no right to what we earn, but they have a right to kill a child because they made a choice to have unprotected sex, or for that matter sex at all. How are we secure in our person and property, when the majority can reach into our back pocket for whatever there cause may be at the time, without my consent? How can the child be secure in their person when a mother has a choice to crack its skull, suck out its brains to kill it, then pull it out and throw into the trash? Or god forbid if it lives, just leave it in a closet until it dies, that sounds like a civilized society to me. We can kill kids and we get free healthcare, well free to us, our neighbor and kids will end up paying for things they had no choice in, just like the baby pays for the mothers choices. Those babies are the ones dying in the street, it is not the poor, from lack of health insurance.
It is also mind boggling listening to all the claims this will get those "evil" insurance companies. We are now forced to buy insurance, granted the insurance companies will be forced to cover every one, but is it the insurance companies that pay or we the customer that no longer has a choice, we have to buy insurance. Sounds to me like the best thing that has ever happened to the insurance companies, they have reduced their liability to zero. They no longer are responsible for their risk assessments, they dont have to try and figure out how much help you will need over your lifetime and adjust you premiums accordingly, it used to be if they were wrong they lost profits, now we lose our profits to support their profits, if they need more money the IRS just takes it. Sounds like a wonderful buisiness plan, for them.
We have been losing our freedoms for a long time, and it is not a valid argument that we have lost them in the past so it is alright now, it should be, we have lost them in the past and we are going back to correct those before trying to move forward. Lets start looking for solutions, not bandages, to fix past solutions, that has never worked, never will. If you break your arm you dont just throw a cast on it, you pull the bones back into place, to fix the problem, then put the cast on to keep the bones in the right path so they heal. If you just throw on a cast, the bones will still heal but will cause problems for the rest of your life, since they werent healed correctly.

[QUOTE=hardblues;568280Now, I'm not saying good...bad or anything else, but, does this give anyone pause as to just what might be tucked away in 2700 pages of ??? and just how this might affect you? What do you think?[/QUOTE]
I think why the need to speculate when you apparently can read? If you're too lazy to do it, or just prefer to do something more profitable with your time, you can pay a professional to do it for you so that they have incentive to do a good job. Or do you seek something else than an answer to your question - you keep bringing it up over and over and over no matter what thread.

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Originally Posted by Jasongreat

It is mind boggling listening to people that are pro-choice argue about what rights we have? Interestingly enough we have no right to what we earn, but they have a right to kill a child because they made a choice to have unprotected sex, or for that matter sex at all. How are we secure in our person and property, when the majority can reach into our back pocket for whatever there cause may be at the time, without my consent? How can the child be secure in their person when a mother has a choice to crack its skull, suck out its brains to kill it, then pull it out and throw into the trash? Or god forbid if it lives, just leave it in a closet until it dies, that sounds like a civilized society to me. We can kill kids and we get free healthcare, well free to us, our neighbor and kids will end up paying for things they had no choice in, just like the baby pays for the mothers choices. Those babies are the ones dying in the street, it is not the poor, from lack of health insurance.
It is also mind boggling listening to all the claims this will get those "evil" insurance companies. We are now forced to buy insurance, granted the insurance companies will be forced to cover every one, but is it the insurance companies that pay or we the customer that no longer has a choice, we have to buy insurance. Sounds to me like the best thing that has ever happened to the insurance companies, they have reduced their liability to zero. They no longer are responsible for their risk assessments, they dont have to try and figure out how much help you will need over your lifetime and adjust you premiums accordingly, it used to be if they were wrong they lost profits, now we lose our profits to support their profits, if they need more money the IRS just takes it. Sounds like a wonderful buisiness plan, for them.
We have been losing our freedoms for a long time, and it is not a valid argument that we have lost them in the past so it is alright now, it should be, we have lost them in the past and we are going back to correct those before trying to move forward. Lets start looking for solutions, not bandages, to fix past solutions, that has never worked, never will. If you break your arm you dont just throw a cast on it, you pull the bones back into place, to fix the problem, then put the cast on to keep the bones in the right path so they heal. If you just throw on a cast, the bones will still heal but will cause problems for the rest of your life, since they werent healed correctly.

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Then I restate my question: specifically, what "freedoms" have you lost?

Beyond that, what in the world are you going on about with all the right-wing abortion talking points? Me, I'm a guy. I'm neither pro- nor anti-choice, since I don't have a womb.

Can't seem to get it to embed, so go here for a much plainer explanation of my position. In comedia veritas est.

YouTube - Monty Python - Life Of Brian - Loretta fragment

On edit: Hooray! It embedded, after all!

Second Edit: Or not. Technology is my personal plague.

Who is taking money from you? As asked above, seriously, just give me a straight answer? Most people from the bottom half middle class down will be subsidized, and even the people above that will be paying less. You'll be *keeping* your money.

But speaking of unfair stealing of money, I see that you live in Utah. Not one of the worst states as far as median income, but low enough on the list that you get more federal taxes than you send out.

That's true of most of the states there they claim to be protecting "capitalism" and decrying all these imaginary rights that they say are being taken but can't seem to produce any evidence of.

The Northern states (you know, the ones who generally try to help the poor and better education, and all this other evil communist stuff you hate), not only make a higher median income (and thus pay more taxes), but get back fewer federal taxes than they put in, because it's getting sent over to Jesusland where they're still having problems with basic literacy and race riots.

My state is financially holding up your state. And you think YOUR money is being stolen? You're the ones taking advantage of money you didn't earn.

This of course doesn't even convey how simplistic and hateful your apparent view of abortion issues is. More often than not, it is people who've done everything in their power to not wind up in that position in the first place, who just had bad luck.

What is with people blaming others for bad lack on these threads? I guess I'll remember to blame you next time someone keys your car.

I won't even go into how just factually incorrect and intellectually dishonest calling it "killing a baby" is. It's just too absurd to deal with.

Tell ya what. Why don't you take all those taxes you're getting from the blue states (which have lower abortion rates than many red states, due to the people being better educated about contraception, by the way) and use it to personally support all the millions of unwanted children you think we should pour into our broken country. When you agree to that, we'll talk.

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Originally Posted by Jasongreat

It is mind boggling listening to people that are pro-choice argue about what rights we have? Interestingly enough we have no right to what we earn, but they have a right to kill a child because they made a choice to have unprotected sex, or for that matter sex at all. How are we secure in our person and property, when the majority can reach into our back pocket for whatever there cause may be at the time, without my consent? How can the child be secure in their person when a mother has a choice to crack its skull, suck out its brains to kill it, then pull it out and throw into the trash? Or god forbid if it lives, just leave it in a closet until it dies, that sounds like a civilized society to me. We can kill kids and we get free healthcare, well free to us, our neighbor and kids will end up paying for things they had no choice in, just like the baby pays for the mothers choices. Those babies are the ones dying in the street, it is not the poor, from lack of health insurance.
It is also mind boggling listening to all the claims this will get those "evil" insurance companies. We are now forced to buy insurance, granted the insurance companies will be forced to cover every one, but is it the insurance companies that pay or we the customer that no longer has a choice, we have to buy insurance. Sounds to me like the best thing that has ever happened to the insurance companies, they have reduced their liability to zero. They no longer are responsible for their risk assessments, they dont have to try and figure out how much help you will need over your lifetime and adjust you premiums accordingly, it used to be if they were wrong they lost profits, now we lose our profits to support their profits, if they need more money the IRS just takes it. Sounds like a wonderful buisiness plan, for them.
We have been losing our freedoms for a long time, and it is not a valid argument that we have lost them in the past so it is alright now, it should be, we have lost them in the past and we are going back to correct those before trying to move forward. Lets start looking for solutions, not bandages, to fix past solutions, that has never worked, never will. If you break your arm you dont just throw a cast on it, you pull the bones back into place, to fix the problem, then put the cast on to keep the bones in the right path so they heal. If you just throw on a cast, the bones will still heal but will cause problems for the rest of your life, since they werent healed correctly.

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Without reading the whole thread.

You can percieve any change in three ways, good, bad or with indifference. Either you're loosing you're freedom, or you moving towards a point where you will get it all back in spades.

The chances are you are loosing your freedom, as generally governments try and do what it best for the people, and eventually you run out of really fundamental things and go after more personal issues or choices. How ever, this, generally, leads to a time where the people decide they have had enough and fight back in some way, and so the clock is reset.

So yes, in my opinion you probably are, and so am I. There is nothing that can be done to change that.

but the question is how much time remains before the people fight back and the clock is reset???? looks like its already heading in that direction and ammunition prices have shot through the roof i really hope it doesnt turn south and go down like that

oh, a long while yet, I imagine. I would say the VAST majority of the west does not yet feel so oppressed to really do something about it. The exception, perhaps, being the french who will riot in the streets for just about anything - good on them IMO.

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Originally Posted by gregs656

The exception, perhaps, being the french who will riot in the streets for just about anything - good on them IMO.

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the advantages of 35hour work week eh :)