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I don't see where i'm asking too much. If i were to be asked if i had a 20 oz. hammer in my tool box i could say "I don't BELIEVE i do." meaning i'm not sure. orQuote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
i could say " I DO NOT HAVE one" meaning i know i don't have one.
All i'm asking is which of the two is the true Atheist saying.
And i also hope by what i'm saying it's being taken as i have contempt, i'll say it again i'm only looking for a firm answer if there is one.
Sorry, but need to chime in here, this is a basic misunderstanding of Christian faith "Santa Claus giving presents to good kids" or "good deeds vs. bad deeds" concept. Followers of Jesus Christ believe that God has given the gift to all and the choice to enter the "gate" is in our hands. The gift (God's Son-Jesus Christ) was given to all, God should NOT be portrayed as a "gate-keeper".Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Really the attempt to "control the masses" comes via man-made religion which can be separated from the Christian faith. Christ did not start a "religion" but opened the door to a relationship with God through his death and ressurrection. It was Constantine in the 4th Century that nationalized the Christian faith creating an 'official' clergy and driving the church into 'official' buildings that led the "controlling of the masses".
Both types can legitimately call themselves atheist. This is the flaw in the definition of the word.Quote:
Originally Posted by paco
Paco, you simply cannot fit people into neat little shoe boxes with labels that describe them in a way that satisfies you.
Namaste,
Morty -_-
Your example on hammer lacks still for few choices. "i do not see any reason to believe or not to believe i have a hammer" or "i believe i have no hammer" (this is different from "i do not believe i have a hammer").Quote:
Originally Posted by paco
There are many more variations in atheism and agnostism. Just like there are endless amount of variations under term "religion(s)" as well. In the end, almost as many as there are people. That's why putting people into fences based on what they believe or not is difficult if not impossible.
But shortly: both atheists and agnostics are atheistic.
It is impossible to give short, simple and bulletproof answer. Finding such answer was much more than any philosopher (or religion) has ever reached.
The trouble is that most atheism is a response to a hypothesis not a hypothesis in itself so can cover a wide variety of positions. Some religions are atheist - raelians or certain types of buddhist for example.. Consequently it's difficult to generalise.Quote:
Originally Posted by paco
However there does tend to be a wide general agreement among many atheists over certain points so I'll give you my view (which is fairly standard).
My position depends on the claim being made - if you for example posit a general "god" responsible for setting the universe going and make no further claims (abstract theism) then my view is that's unfalsifiable and I challenge you to produce evidence to support this position but I have no evidence this is not true, all I can say is that I don't believe your hypothesis and won't until you supply substantive evidence.
Most relegions of course, such a christianity or islam, go on to make further claims some of which are falsifiable. Also if your religion makes claims which are internally inconsistent then plainly you must be mistaken in some respect. The same if your claims conflict with reality. This allows me to make the stronger statement that the god described in the bible, the gods of ancient greece and rome, etc do not exist since they do not have internal consistency and conflict with demonstrable shared reality.
FINALLY, Thank you everyone, now with the last few posts the ? was answered there is no definitive definition.
Sailor, in my example i DO see a reason to believe or not to believe i have the hammer. The curtious thing to do when someone asks me a question is to answer, so that would be my reason to consider if i had one. The second i don't believe i do and i believe i don't to me say the same thing. "I don't THINK I HAVE ONE, but it's possible i do and don't remember so i'll look."
Morty, I'm not trying to pigeon hole people just trying to see if there is a finite or consensus to the definition.
It seems to have been answered as i said before in the last few posts. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrjp
Sorry, but I made absolutely NO reference to the Christian religion, it is but one of many, which offer the same thing...
You can take this concept all the way back to the very first religions, where the definition of "Weak Hunter" was Shaman... :)
If you cut them up into small enough pieces, yes you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morty
You are right of course. As long as we are talking about things that 100% and with no doubt exist, such as hammer. Once we get into things that are either spiritual, unnatural and/or beyond physical proof, there is no fullproof answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by paco
I can easily say that i believe i have my hammer in my garage, but if someone asks me is there/is there not a God, Allah, elfs, etc, i can't give any exact physical proof; i can only believe or not, or think the question as irrelevant.