Men need men...

Read the book Iron John: A Book About Men by Robert Bly <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men">(Wikipedia Link)<a/>. It deals with that very thing and so much more about being a man. The kind of man you talked about in your post. It also lets you learn a lot about your father. I have given copies to all my friends and keep copies on hand to give out. Bly really is a genius on this topic.

Heres the link to <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-About-Men/dp/0306813769/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279783963&sr=8-1">Amazon</a> where you can read a preview. They are cheap at the used book stores.

I feel it should be required reading for all men entering college.

This is an interesting thread. I usually don't read the conversation too much, but I was drawn to this thread. I got through most of the posts and one thought kept popping into my head...why so much focus on what a man is or what it means to be a man?

I'm aware of the restrictions around masculinity, particularly the emotional ones, but I don't really find myself agonizing over what it means to be a man. The idea I like to think of in this case is that your identity is not something you discover but something you create. That is, you don't have to search endlessly to find who you are as a man or what it means to be a man. Who you are and what masculinity is to you are things you can create and decide. And if you're ok with the decision, really ok with it, then who cares what others think? With 99% of people you are around, meet, see or encounter, that'll probably be your last encounter with them...

I think lots of people will disagree with me when I say this, but I think if a man does something, then I consider that action to be "something men do". That's regardless of how un-stereotypical it is with regard to gender roles. Whatever it might be...crying, loving, wearing makeup, screaming, fighting, suicide...whatever. Maybe not all men and maybe not a large percentage, but men still do it and it doesn't make them any less of men, cause they're obviously still men. Yea, there's the distinction between gender and sex, but if they're sexually male and they identify as male, then they're men regardless of what they do. Sad men, happy men, weird men, depressed men, ugly men, angry men...still men...I went on a tangent there, but I think my general idea was that I don't worry so much about what I should do as a man as much as I think about what the impacts of my actions are on me, on others, on my relationships, etc...

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Originally Posted by joscobo

Read the book Iron John: A Book About Men by Robert Bly <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men">(Wikipedia Link)<a/>. It deals with that very thing and so much more about being a man. The kind of man you talked about in your post. It also lets you learn a lot about your father. I have given copies to all my friends and keep copies on hand to give out. Bly really is a genius on this topic.

Heres the link to <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-About-Men/dp/0306813769/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279783963&sr=8-1">Amazon</a> where you can read a preview. They are cheap at the used book stores.

I feel it should be required reading for all men entering college.

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"Iron John" is a good book as is "The Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell. Both worth a read .

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Originally Posted by joscobo

Read the book Iron John: A Book About Men by Robert Bly (Wikipedia Link). It deals with that very thing and so much more about being a man. The kind of man you talked about in your post. It also lets you learn a lot about your father. I have given copies to all my friends and keep copies on hand to give out. Bly really is a genius on this topic.

Heres the link to Amazon where you can read a preview. They are cheap at the used book stores.

I feel it should be required reading for all men entering college.

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That was one off the books I dealt with in my thesis, actually. I had some major issues with the premise, however. What Bly is suggesting is that there is a "true" masculinity that is barbaric, angry, and aggressive, and that women have locked it up (the queen holds the only key under her pillow, IIRC).

Now, my problems with this arise in a few areas. First, I don't believe that there's a "true" masculine, nor do I believe that it resides deep in the heart of every man, waiting to be freed. I outright disagree that if there is a "heart" to masculinity, it isn't inherently barbaric, angry, or aggressive. And I think the idea of leaving the fault for locking male emotions up on the doorstep of women is both wrong and laughable; if anyone is to blame for men being unable to show emotion, it's men.

That said, I agree that it should be mandatory reading. I would, however, suggest that it should be paired with R.W. Connell's Masculinities. I would also suggest that some femenist readings be required for both men and women when entering college, but that might just be because I see value in having everyone reevaluate things that they have taken for granted to be set in stone--like gender.

Another good book on this subject is Wild at Heart by John Eldridge.

JT

Thanks for all the replies. Very good points made so far. Indeed.

But allow me to post a little... disclaimer: I'm not questioning manliness, masculinity or whatever. I'm simply pointing out that we, as men, need other men to be men. This doesn't mean that it is only through the contact with other men that we can be men. That is not true, although it is not far from the truth... But through the contact with other men we may find pointers to help us become better men. The simple fact that we are here, discussing this topic is a strong reminder of precisely that.

Now, I do understand that gender roles and sex are not necessarily the same thing although the interconnections between the two are not to be disregarded, obviously. And on that point Vulcan500rider made some strong and interesting points. And I do agree with him: there are some interesting readings to be done, including some that have emerged from feminin studies.
But really, why do we feel that we have to discuss masculinity? I belive that it is not because of doubts related to one's feelings towards being a man or whatever. No, I belive that it is a fundamental task to raise questions about what it is to be what one is in order to be, ultimately, what one is to the fullest potential. I know that this discussion will not, by itself, make me a better man - but it may help me realize what being a good man is and it may well help me understand what my role in society is.

What is a real man? Nevermind that - it is not easy to answer that question. A man may be a male, yes. But that male may not be "manly"... These are concepts that have to be defined. Being a male, ultimately, is related to your genes and the chromosomes that put that dangling thing in between our legs! But a fellow that runs away, that doesn't face the challenges that life places in front of him will be disregarded as being a male? No - if he is a male; but what sort of manliness is implied, if any, in such an atitude?

This discussion will probably never come to an end. We will not, after thousands of posts, come to the conclusion of what is and what is not a real man. But I'm sure that all of these posts, all this input from so many people will make us think, reflect upon our own masculinity. And that will make us better men, in the end. It will not be a revolution in the way we perceive ourselves, but it will shift us - even if a little bit - towards being better men. And that's what counts. :)

Look in the library or used book store for the book:
The first forty pages are worth a scan.

"Jack straight from the gut" by Jack Welch, 2001

Jack Welch is the past CEO of GE and made a
big impact on corporate culture not just in America.
The interesting bits are how he was raised
by his Father and Mother and how his 'moral compass'
was aligned by community, church, coaches, sports,
friends and family.

On a couple occasions I got to meet David Packard
of HP fame. Another man with a strong moral compass
and strongly held value system.

In the eighties we all read Real Men Don't Eat Quiche.

That book will get you back on track.

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Originally Posted by heirkb

I'm aware of the restrictions around masculinity, particularly the emotional ones, but I don't really find myself agonizing over what it means to be a man. The idea I like to think of in this case is that your identity is not something you discover but something you create. That is, you don't have to search endlessly to find who you are as a man or what it means to be a man. Who you are and what masculinity is to you are things you can create and decide.

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Unless I'm misinterpreting your premise it hasn't been that way IME. Since I'm in my 60s I've long since ceased agonizing over any question of who I am. I do agree that our identity is something that we can create but finding out who we are is not the same as who we pretend to be.

IME we find out who we really are by how we react in various circumstances and situations that we encounter throughout our lives. All of this is influenced by upbringing and to some extent our world view but genetics enter into the equation too. The old saying,"it is not how much dog is in the fight, but how much fight is in the dog" comes to mind. Applying the analogy to more than fighting but to acceptance of responsibility, honesty, integrity and personality in general. Some of it is by choice but much of it is inborn. Just IMO.

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Originally Posted by Kees

In the eighties we all read Real Men Don't Eat Quiche.

That book will get you back on track.

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But... but... I LIKE QUICHE!! :shrug: