Men need men...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

There is an interesting body of work related to elephants and zoos.
It was fond that elephants needed "adult" teacher elephants to learn
how to be elephants and function in a herd.

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Hi Nifty...Good point my man, but if memory serves me correctly, elephant herds are primarily led (and nurtured) by the Matriarch (eldest female elephant). Male adult elephants lead isolated lives for the most part, unless mating, etc... As the "baby" male elephants grow older, they too gradually begin to spend more time at the edge of the herd, gradually going off on his own for hours or days, eventually leading an isolated life.

But, despite the fact that the male elephant grows in a predominantly matriarchal social structure, he somehow doesn't lose his "biological maleness".

I think Francisco's definition of "maleness" is different (Francisco...please correct me here if wrong). Oz also made a very good point above.

I personally think that the human social structure is more complex and different than elephant herds. Human males have a "biological" maleness component (mush like the animals), but since we also seem a bit more isolated in our socio-behavioral pattern (someone please correct me if I am out of my league here...'cause I am) compared to our female counterparts, we require or desire "male" role models in our lives.

I am speaking strictly based on what I believe and what I said may have absolutely no scientific or quantitative merit or basis in the real world.

I haven't read all the comments, but we men all need to consider that women will only keep us around until parthenogenesis is perfected and they still need someone for heavy lifting. :boohoo:

:beer2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce

I haven't read all the comments, but we men all need to consider that women will only keep us around until parthenogenesis is perfected and they still need someone for heavy lifting. :boohoo:

:beer2:

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:rofl2:

YouTube - Women 48kg Snatch 2009 Weightlifting Worlds

In a moment or two we will need to gather in a classroom and hear some sociology professors lecturing to all of us... :) This has become a rather interesting discussion...

I don't intend to define manliness or "maleness". Nor do I wish to be compared to an elefant. Please, I may have a pound or two more that I should but that's it! And my nose is much smaller... and I tend not to use it to shovel food into my mouth. :) That having been said... It is a fact that elefants are herd animals. I reckon that humans are not. But the principle stands, in a way. Small humans need big humans to teach them to be humans. That is how we work. That is the core of bringing someone up - and the expression says it all: bringing up...

Now, concerning the topic that has sparked all this conversation - and all this controversy, as well...
The question here is not manliness. I'm sure that all of us will agree that there is no such thing as a standard of manliness... A manly man is a manly man. Ideally, it is not only in his genes, but also deeply carved into his culture and into the society from which he as sprouted (much like the brussels sprouts... :)). A western man - a european or an american - will probably be different form a man from a lost tribe from Papua New-Guinea. Their notions of manliness will differ (assuming that the so called "primitive" societies have such a notion... because it is generated by thoughts that can only be, themselves, generated by the mind that is well fed and does not have to worry about catching dinner for the tribe). Surely enough there will be rites of passage. These rites - that also exist, though not in so obvious ways, also exist in our modern western world. The Prom, the first shave, the first job... whatever.
The thing is: children cannot teach children to be responsible or teach eachother what are the core values of their culture or society. That is why, ultimately, we have schools, and boy scouts and so many other things that help us define what is our own value system, but also what it means to be what one is.

After the 1960's lots of things changed - we had hippies, the sexual revolution, feminist movements, student strikes, you name it... The result was that, for the first time young men (and I will only focus on men for obvious reasons) started to drift way from the standards of their fathers and grandfathers. Especialy because the standards of their mothers also started to change - don't forget that when men went overseas to fight in the war, the mothers had to fill in their shoes and consequently, the women that would become the wives of this new generation were no longer willing to stay in the kitchen and be simple house wives... Ultimately, everything changed.

Now, my generation is looking to the past to find new standards of manliness. We have re-invented the past, in a way. We are bringing back hats, mustaches, brill-cream, classic shaving... All in all, this is a complex process. Very much a complicated thing to explain...
But if we have all the so-called retro stuff to indulge in, we are the sons of the first generations that defied the stradards. We were brought up by women, we were touched by the divorce of our parents, etc. Lots of things enter the equation.
But the ground is clearly defined - we are men, even if we are unsure of what "real men" are. This possible uncertainty, though not incapacitating in any way - especially in my particular case - is what makes me so sure that men need men... We need friends to goof arround, have drinks, make fun of each other, share experiences and offer support when times get rough. That is my point.

Now, here in Brussels, a month after I've arived in a new city, almost completely alone, deprived of my core friends, deprived of my adorable cat and deprived of my loving wife (though she is coming to live here in less than a week), I tend to feel lonesome. You guys are, somehow, a support. I know that this is all virtual and that I might never meet most of you... but it is nice to think that, even for a brief moment I can read posts of my friends and discuss issues with them. That's basically it...
And it is not only me. Take a look at the Finest things in life and the conversation sections of this forum. You will find people saying that they have become dads, that they are going to be married, that they are experiencing the grueling effects of the credit crunch. You will find people showing of that new pipe they bought, that new knife or gun... We don't do this because we need approval - especially of people that we may never meet. We do this because here we have found other men that share our interests and are keen on posting a comment or hearing what someone has to say... This, gentlemen, is men needing men. And this is men finding the men they need.



(Did you hear the Elgar on this last bit?... I know I did! :))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fpessanha

In a moment or two we will need to gather in a classroom and hear some sociology professors lecturing to all of us... :) This has become a rather interesting discussion...

I don't intend to define manliness or "maleness". Nor do I wish to be compared to an elefant. Please, I may have a pound or two more that I should but that's it! And my nose is much smaller... and I tend not to use it to shovel food into my mouth. :) That having been said... It is a fact that elefants are herd animals. I reckon that humans are not. But the principle stands, in a way. Small humans need big humans to teach them to be humans. That is how we work. That is the core of bringing someone up - and the expression says it all: bringing up...

Now, concerning the topic that has sparked all this conversation - and all this controversy, as well...
The question here is not manliness. I'm sure that all of us will agree that there is no such thing as a standard of manliness... A manly man is a manly man. Ideally, it is not only in his genes, but also deeply carved into his culture and into the society from which he as sprouted (much like the brussels sprouts... :)). A western man - a european or an american - will probably be different form a man from a lost tribe from Papua New-Guinea. Their notions of manliness will differ (assuming that the so called "primitive" societies have such a notion... because it is generated by thoughts that can only be, themselves, generated by the mind that is well fed and does not have to worry about catching dinner for the tribe). Surely enough there will be rites of passage. These rites - that also exist, though not in so obvious ways, also exist in our modern western world. The Prom, the first shave, the first job... whatever.
The thing is: children cannot teach children to be responsible or teach eachother what are the core values of their culture or society. That is why, ultimately, we have schools, and boy scouts and so many other things that help us define what is our own value system, but also what it means to be what one is.

After the 1960's lots of things changed - we had hippies, the sexual revolution, feminist movements, student strikes, you name it... The result was that, for the first time young men (and I will only focus on men for obvious reasons) started to drift way from the standards of their fathers and grandfathers. Especialy because the standards of their mothers also started to change - don't forget that when men went overseas to fight in the war, the mothers had to fill in their shoes and consequently, the women that would become the wives of this new generation were no longer willing to stay in the kitchen and be simple house wives... Ultimately, everything changed.

Now, my generation is looking to the past to find new standards of manliness. We have re-invented the past, in a way. We are bringing back hats, mustaches, brill-cream, classic shaving... All in all, this is a complex process. Very much a complicated thing to explain...
But if we have all the so-called retro stuff to indulge in, we are the sons of the first generations that defied the stradards. We were brought up by women, we were touched by the divorce of our parents, etc. Lots of things enter the equation.
But the ground is clearly defined - we are men, even if we are unsure of what "real men" are. This possible uncertainty, though not incapacitating in any way - especially in my particular case - is what makes me so sure that men need men... We need friends to goof arround, have drinks, make fun of each other, share experiences and offer support when times get rough. That is my point.

Now, here in Brussels, a month after I've arived in a new city, almost completely alone, deprived of my core friends, deprived of my adorable cat and deprived of my loving wife (though she is coming to live here in less than a week), I tend to feel lonesome. You guys are, somehow, a support. I know that this is all virtual and that I might never meet most of you... but it is nice to think that, even for a brief moment I can read posts of my friends and discuss issues with them. That's basically it...
And it is not only me. Take a look at the Finest things in life and the conversation sections of this forum. You will find people saying that they have become dads, that they are going to be married, that they are experiencing the grueling effects of the credit crunch. You will find people showing of that new pipe they bought, that new knife or gun... We don't do this because we need approval - especially of people that we may never meet. We do this because here we have found other men that share our interests and are keen on posting a comment or hearing what someone has to say... This, gentlemen, is men needing men. And this is men finding the men they need.



(Did you hear the Elgar on this last bit?... I know I did! :))

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So thanks for your interesting post and for starting this thread.

A little off topic about me: I was born in sixties and my father died when i was little. My mother moved to London so i was raised by my grandparents who were elder generation. My granddad was something you might describe like 'a real man', hard working ,tough war vet and all his friend were too; either seen the worst in either Finnish or German armies when the times were sad. I've always seen them as a 'real men', but now we have to remember that they had no choice but to be as they were. They had no choice or freedom, as we have nowadays, to think about our manliness, or the lack of it. Might be a part of our (Finnish) culture, but discussing about our lifestyle, hobbies, what we feel about this and that, was something to be ashamed (at least when you are sober). Men just had to do what they had to do; no big deal.
When i was about 14 or so, my beard started to grow so the old man gave me a Gillette DE, some buck of used soap and used brush from who knows where, and told me to shave myself. Never told me how. And i remember when i was about 6 or 7, complaining to be bored of something, he gave me a sharp knife and a little saw and told me to get lost and make something with those. Still they were caring people. The times were different. They just behaved the only way they knew. Nowadays i couldn't imagine behaving the same with my kids.

Those days people didn't talk about their feelings or self-evidences nor didn't have time or possibilities to focus on themselves. That is a biggest difference between then and now, but this is true from my cultural background only of course.

For my whole adult life i've worked in a place with mostly male people. Women are still very rare exception. Most people there behave as machos, so i can say that i've been influenced with male behavior enough. I think i've been lucky to avoid that, but that is of course when compared my behavior to someone else.

I do not see myself a bit as a 'real man' or alternative or something between. I'm honestly sure i have the feminine side, but i haven't been looking for it this far. I can read poems or fix engines, cheer a crying child or woman, iron my shirts or build houses. It has nothing to do with my manliness or lack of it. What is left from my long gone grandparents is that manliness is something not to worry. Luckily we have places like SRP where we can talk about such everyday self-evidences like shaving or what we are. We are individuals and we all have our cultural and genetic backgrounds. No big deal.
Manliness, for me, is nothing to worry about. I rather like to behave, just being myself, and take care of my responsibilities for the people i live and work with: my family, my friends, and the people at my work.
Manliness isn't about your lifestyle or what you do (or with what you shave with); it is rather how you do and what you are, IMHO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Yes & No. Women & children can help a man learn certain things but I disagree that male teenagers & children can teach each other to be men.

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I did not consider children teaching children to be men relevant, though perhaps it is. I bet we can all recall a story of some family, after experiencing loss; that the responsibility of raising the younger siblings has fallen upon the eldest child. Though they may have learned what needed doing from their parent(s). The strength to carry on comes from somewhere else

What I was referring to are the changes in attitude that often arise when a young man starts a family of his own. When I was 17 I considered myself a man; by 37 I had come realize my earlier opinion was uninformed. Being a husband and father I gained further insight into the meaning of being a successful male. I would say I was more informed by love and compassion and just being with them, more than learning the ways and strategies of other men. Come to think of it hanging out with dudes has got me more trouble than anything positive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sailor

So thanks for your interesting post and for starting this thread.

A little off topic about me: I was born in sixties and my father died when i was little. My mother moved to London so i was raised by my grandparents who were elder generation. My granddad was something you might describe like 'a real man', hard working ,tough war vet and all his friend were too; either seen the worst in either Finnish or German armies when the times were sad. I've always seen them as a 'real men', but now we have to remember that they had no choice but to be as they were. They had no choice or freedom, as we have nowadays, to think about our manliness, or the lack of it. Might be a part of our (Finnish) culture, but discussing about our lifestyle, hobbies, what we feel about this and that, was something to be ashamed (at least when you are sober). Men just had to do what they had to do; no big deal.
When i was about 14 or so, my beard started to grow. Old man gave me a Gillette DE, some buck of used soap and used brush from who knows where, and asked me to shave myself. Never told me how. And i remember when i was about 6 or 7, complaining to be bored of something, he gave me a sharp knife and a little saw and asked me to make something with those. Still they were caring people. The times were different. They just behaved the only way they knew. Nowadays i couldn't imagine behaving the same with my kids.

Those days people didn't talk about their feelings or self-evidences nor didn't have time or possibilities to focus on themselves. That is a biggest difference between then and now, but this is true from my cultural background only of course.

For my whole adult life i've worked in a place with mostly male people. Women are still very rare exception. Most people there behave as machos, so i can say that i've been influenced with male behavior enough. I think i've been lucky to avoid that, but that is of course when compared my behavior to someone else.

I do not see myself a bit as a 'real man' or alternative or something between. I can read poems or fix engines, cheer a crying child or woman or build houses. It has nothing to do with my manliness or lack of it. What is left from my long gone grandparents is that manliness is something not to worry. Luckily we have places like SRP where we can talk about such everyday self-evidences like shaving or what we are. We are individuals and we all have our cultural and genetic backgrounds. No big deal.
Manliness, for me, is nothing to worry about. I rather like to behave, just being myself, and take care of my responsibilities for the people i live and work with: my family, my friends, and the people at my work.
Manliness isn't about your lifestyle or what you do (or with what you shave with); it is rather how you do and what you are, IMHO.

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I like that story. They did what they had to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BladeRunner001

Hi Nifty...Good point my man, but if memory serves me correctly, elephant herds are primarily led (and nurtured) by the Matriarch (eldest female elephant). Male adult elephants lead isolated lives for the most part, unless mating, etc... As the "baby" male elephants grow older, they too gradually begin to spend more time at the edge of the herd, gradually going off on his own for hours or days, eventually leading an isolated life.

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And here's the thing.
Being led & nurtured is not being a man ...or in this case a bull elephant :)
In that society as in ours there needs to be a break from the female apron strings.
There must be some individuation, even from other male role models.

The Little Boy and the Old Man by Shel Silverstein

Said the little boy, "Sometimes I drop my spoon."
Said the old man, "I do that too."
The little boy whispered, "I wet my pants."
"I do that too," laughed the little old man.
Said the little boy, "I often cry."
The old man nodded, "So do I."
"But worst of all," said the boy, "it seems
Grown-ups don't pay attention to me."
And he felt the warmth of a wrinkled old hand.
"I know what you mean," said the little old man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BladeRunner001

Hi Nifty...Good point my man, but if memory serves me correctly, elephant herds are primarily led (and nurtured) by the Matriarch (eldest female elephant). Male adult elephants
....snip....
I personally think that the human social structure is more complex
....snip....

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You are correct elephant matriarchs are the big cheese in
the herd. Yet it is a rich culture with the bull defending from
other bulls, auntie cow elephants helping the cows with
calves etc, etc. i.e. it is a family and what the zoo folk discovered
was when the social fabric is disrupted bad things happen.
All the members of the herd have a part to do and that part
can change over time. One of the things a Bull Elephant does
is teach the young bull elephants to fight and even fight fair.
Not that bull elephants do not hurt each other but there are
rules that when push comes to shove decide most contests.