NY man shot 21 times by police ...... expected to live

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Originally Posted by thehekler

As an American I am embarassed by the accuracy of our police force. Police in European countries often do not carry guns and while that probably says more about the culture of Europe versus the USA. European officers that do carry guns are often issued with .22 I believe, meanwhile in the USA our officers need 9mm (10mm in the case of the FBI) because their accuracy is so lousy that they need a hit to do maximum damage. I know it's unfair to compare the accuracy of a French officer using a .22 to that of an nypd officer using a 9mm obviously the larger round is harder to control but I feel that a accuracy of approx. 50% is very much to low especially when it places bystanders and fellow officers at risk. I find the issue of accuracy much more of a problem than the overwhelming force used, as long as the suspect is discovered to have somehow threatened those nearby requiring deadly force :gwh:

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Here they carry 9mm. Special teams have several other calibers available. Can't say about 22, might as well be.
As someone wisely said here, it is not the caliber but aim that counts. And your ability to stay calm and handle a weapon in hazardous situation. I'm not saying anything against police members in general as i respect the risky work they do every day.

What it comes to situation in the op we have to remember that it is just a news story and we do not know how things exactly went. However if it happened even closely as stated in the news then there's something maybe to worry about. Luckily there was just one dead (and hope it was the right guy) as it might have gone much worse.

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Originally Posted by thehekler

As an American I am embarassed by the accuracy of our police force. Police in European countries often do not carry guns and while that probably says more about the culture of Europe versus the USA. European officers that do carry guns are often issued with .22 I believe, meanwhile in the USA our officers need 9mm (10mm in the case of the FBI) because their accuracy is so lousy that they need a hit to do maximum damage. I know it's unfair to compare the accuracy of a French officer using a .22 to that of an nypd officer using a 9mm obviously the larger round is harder to control but I feel that a accuracy of approx. 50% is very much to low especially when it places bystanders and fellow officers at risk. I find the issue of accuracy much more of a problem than the overwhelming force used, as long as the suspect is discovered to have somehow threatened those nearby requiring deadly force :gwh:

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Being accurate and qualifying at the range is not the same as being in a gun fight. Picture all fine motor control is non existant, adrenaline is pumping and all you have is what remains of your training and large muscle groups.
The purpose of larger rounds is simple stopping power. 22 cal rounds are deadly for long ranges and would be hideous to use in a gun fight when the criminal has a .38 or .357. Personally, the 9mm is a good belly gun, but there are better calibers for this purpose. The police need to have more not less than the criminals.

I think I heard that four officers fired forty-something rounds. If they hit the guy 21 times, in a real-world gunfight, I don't think that's bad shooting. It's a fluke and blind luck for the perp that they didn't hit any vitals. It stopped him though. It's a shame about the others being hit, but it does seem he was firing at the officers and that the situation was chaotic. Things aren't always as nice and tidy as in the movies.

Jordan

I've seen people's adrenaline cause them miss multiple shots on deer at distances of under 20 yards while using a rifle. Deer don't even shoot back most of the time.

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Originally Posted by thehekler

As an American I am embarassed by the accuracy of our police force. Police in European countries often do not carry guns and while that probably says more about the culture of Europe versus the USA. European officers that do carry guns are often issued with .22 I believe, meanwhile in the USA our officers need 9mm (10mm in the case of the FBI) because their accuracy is so lousy that they need a hit to do maximum damage. I know it's unfair to compare the accuracy of a French officer using a .22 to that of an nypd officer using a 9mm obviously the larger round is harder to control but I feel that a accuracy of approx. 50% is very much to low especially when it places bystanders and fellow officers at risk. I find the issue of accuracy much more of a problem than the overwhelming force used, as long as the suspect is discovered to have somehow threatened those nearby requiring deadly force :gwh:

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50% accuracy in a gunfight is nothing to criticize! Using a .22, the target you need to hit to instantly incapacitate someone is probably a 4 inch circle on their forehead. Try drawing your pistol and, without hesitation, hitting a 4 inch target at 20 yards. Now add a target shooting at you.

Also, it seems like the current French service pistol is the Sig Pro, replacing the Beretta 92, which are both 9mm. I also doubt they aim one better than an American.

I feel that my first post was unclear and disorganized I am not arguing that the .22 or any small caliber gun is better than a larger caliber gun. But I also do not follow the argument that the larger round is better. I'm arguing that training is the difference and using the argument that other countries make due with smaller calibers for their police forces and get along fine because of different training styles. I understand no training is going to hold up perfectly to the added stress of real life combat, but it does and will help. Police can, and IMO should, be trained to higher accuracy standards. From the article 1 or 2 people posed a risk towards the officers/public yet if I read it correctly 7 people were hit in someway by police rounds, that is clearly unaccepatable.

I know I was trained differently.

I am not disputing adrenalin does weird stuff, however one quick breath before acting can make a huge difference. I am glad that no innocents were seriously hurt (hopefully), however that many rounds is ridiculous.

The world I came from was much different and I understand the police may go their entire carer without ever having to shoot anyone, however it is a shame they need to go to that extent.

I was dam good at my job weather it is a .338, 308, .40, .45 should be revelation, shot placement is the only answer. Training is the key.

Ok I am stopping now, as this has always been a sore subject for me. I believe in the 1 bullet rule. Sorry for the tangent and rant.

:soapbox:

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Originally Posted by thehekler

Police in European countries often do not carry guns and while that probably says more about the culture of Europe versus the USA.

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Horsecrap. Just because you dont see it, doesnt mean they dont have it. I remember enjoying the night life in Mannheim FRG and the Polizie walking down the street with machine pistols slung, greeting the passersby.

No matter how good you are at the range when you're in a gun fight that all goes out the window unless you practice so much when your body goes into brain off mode your training takes over. Also all the practice at shooting at a target is worthless when firing at a moving target and police in this country do not do moving target practice unless you get to go to some fancy firearms course usually sponsored by a Federal Agency.

The FBI actually had reduced velocity 10mm rounds so I would imagine the outrageous cost of the ammo was part of the problem maybe the size of the gun too. My agency had custom loaded 40 S&W rounds by Federal and they were ultra high velocity to the point we had to have both H&K and baretta custom reinforce the pistols otherwise the frames were cracking.

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Originally Posted by Longrange

I know I was trained differently.

I am not disputing adrenalin does weird stuff, however one quick breath before acting can make a huge difference. I am glad that no innocents were seriously hurt (hopefully), however that many rounds is ridiculous.

:soapbox:

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I wonder how NYC's finest are trained in these times in contrast to how you were prepared?

It would really be sad if they are forced to spend more time sitting in classes learning on how to be sensitive about trendy social issues by charlatans with phd's, than for the day where they may have to sacrifice there lives on duty.