Legal Age

Hello gentlemen/ladies,

Just to clarify something, the topic of this thread is legal drinking age, NOT a conversation about age of sexual consent....

It occurred to me recently that we have a large number of youngin's here, as in the under-20 demographic, who are shaving with SR's but aren't even old enough to buy booze. That reminded me that for a lot of our American friends the legal drinking age is 21.

The LDA varies in Canada from province to province, just as it varies from state to state. Here in Alberta it is 18. This seems reasonable enough to me, as the age of majority includes many other responsibilities other than buying alcohol. 21 just seems to be such an odd-ball number, and I have no idea why it was chosen. As well, it just doesn't seem right. In the States at 18 you are deemed old enough (and therefore responsible enough) to vote for your president, you can die for your country in the armed forces, you can operate a motor vehicle (with the potential to kill people) and I'm assuming you can also buy a gun. But apparently you aren't mature enough to go to a liquor store and buy a six pack to enjoy a hot summer day, or enjoy a nice glass of wine with a meal. You get my drift...

So, what is the legal drinking age in your area? What are your thoughts on the whole issue?

The US is 21 across the whole breadth and width...

HOWEVER..

I agree with your logic.
If you can Vote, Enter in a contract, and join the Armed forces you can Drink!!! and that in itself proves that the 18-21 year old vote is pretty much a joke... Wouldn't that be that first thing on your agenda if you were 18 and politically organized????

BTW You can only buy certain guns at 18


PS; keep in mind that my thought goes both ways maybe you shouldn't be doing any of those at 18 either :D

In Finland legal drinking age is 18 for wines & beer (tobacco as well) and 20 for hard ones. That doesn't stop our youth drinking younger but it makes it little (but only little) more difficult to get alcohol. Once they reach their legal age they usually have learned how to deal with alcohol civilized.

Most youngsters take their first experiences with booze at the age of 14 or 15. Police can take the bottles away when they see underaged person obviously drunk but usually, and specially in the big cities there must be hundreds of teens humming around very drunk so police only tries to pick up only those who seem to have their condition worse.
I do not know if this is good or bad. Just a way it is and have been maybe for decades if not hundreds of years.

The legal age throughout the US is 21... the federal guv'ment holds highway funding over the heads of the states to keep it that way.

My feelings are very mixed... 18 is old enough to vote and go to war to fight and die for the country, so why shouldn't they be "full" adults and allowed to tipple? To me this should be simple logic.

*BUT* (There is always a but....)
In my line of work, I see on a daily basis, the effects of poorly made decisions on the parts of young people heavily influenced by liquid-courage. My inner cynic says the drinking age should be about 37 after passing a test and being licensed by the state as a responsible adult.:mace:

I honestly don't think most folks are mature enough at 18 (or 21 for that matter) to consume alcohol as they desire. To many self destructive, both intentional and unintentional, actions occur... to many times I've heard a recently sobered-up teen say "I did what?" I'm sure that there is a pretty large number of 18 year old young adults who are perfectly mature enough to handle drinking, but as our society has to dumb things down to the level of the common moron.... I'm guessing it will stay at 21 for the foreseeable future in the US.

On a side note, I also feel that folks shouldn't be allowed to breed until they can prove to the state that they are capable of being decent parents.... but as my inner-cynic isn't currently all powerful sympathetic dictator of the world, I'll just sit quietly and plot to take over the world...:soapbox:

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Originally Posted by OiRogers

I honestly don't think most folks are mature enough at 18 (or 21 for that matter) to consume alcohol as they desire. To many self destructive, both intentional and unintentional, actions occur... to many times I've heard a recently sobered-up teen say "I did what?" I'm sure that there is a pretty large number of 18 year old young adults who are perfectly mature enough to handle drinking, but as our society has to dumb things down to the level of the common moron.... I'm guessing it will stay at 21 for the foreseeable future in the US.

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But, they are old enough to handle pulling a trigger in War???? and signing a contact to buy a car... Perhaps waking up the next morning and saying "I did what" see that "but" sword cuts both ways...
Either lift the age of responsible adulthood the 21+ or everything is 18 that is only fair...my 2 cents :)

There are definitely reasons the drinking age is 21 and I fully agree with it. This should help you: WHY 21 -Get the Truth About the 21 Law

Specifically the part on the "Teen Brain".

In Norway the age for voting, bying alcohol and driving a car is all 18.
You are a grown-up or you are not, seems to be the thinking here!

Age for voting and drivers license is 18. You can join the military at 17.
That has nothing to do with your ability to deal with alcohol. Sadly we have sort of a drinking culture that has nothing to do with the age. I know many people between 30 - 60 who still do not know how to drink civilized. It is ass over shoulders every time.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The US is 21 across the whole breadth and width...

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Thanks for the info, Glen. I thought I heard somewhere that there were state variances, it was an assumption on my part. Perhaps I was thinking of an initiative where a specific state was thinking outloud on the subject...

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Originally Posted by Sailor

Once they reach their legal age they usually have learned how to deal with alcohol civilized.

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This is pretty much how I feel.

I don't believe there should be a legal drinking age. I quit heavy drinking when I turned 21. I started drinking beer at 21.

I joined the Army at 22 and didn't drink again until my team went to Iraq when I was 31. The entire team stayed drunk most of the tour. I'd go into Baghdad once or twice a week and come back to Al Hilla with an FMTV loaded with pallets of beer. We had walls of beer in our safe house. I went from 184lbs to 220lbs in less than a year.

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

There are definitely reasons the drinking age is 21 and I fully agree with it. This should help you: WHY 21 -Get the Truth About the 21 Law

Specifically the part on the "Teen Brain".

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That's an interesting read, Philadelph, thanks for finding that. The section on the "blood borders" is admittedly true, especially here in Canada where there are different LDA's across the provinces. In British Columbia, for example, the age is 19; 18 year old kids can drive across the border into Alberta and get smashed. On the flip side, Alberta kids, who have already been drinking legally, will cross into B.C. to find that they can't drink anymore.

Unfortunately, a lot of it seems to be little more than state (no pun intended) propaganda as it seems to discount the reality that teens have already been drinking long before they reach 21. As much as they try to debunk the forbidden fruit "theory" it still doesn't change the fact that this "theory" is completely true.

I fully agree that the age for all of those things should be the same. I just think that instead of thinking of dropping the drinking age, we should think about increasing the voting age and the age at which someone can enlist in the armed forces.

I wasn't responsible enough to make any of those decisions at 18. I don't know too many people who are.

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Originally Posted by HNSB

I just think that instead of thinking of dropping the drinking age, we should think about increasing the voting age and the age at which someone can enlist in the armed forces.

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This is where we get to the slippery slope as it were, the political realities of law, which shows that safety is not the top priority of these movements. By increasing the legal age for the activities listed the government is
a) losing the 18-20 voting demographic (yes I realize it's not very large, but there are still votes to be lost), and
b) shrinking the pool of potential soldiers that they could be sending directly to the front lines.

Yes, hypocrisy could be at work here, folks....

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

This is where we get to the slippery slope as it were, the political realities of law, which shows that safety is not the top priority of these movements. By increasing the legal age for the activities listed the government is
a) losing the 18-20 voting demographic (yes I realize it's not very large, but there are still votes to be lost), and
b) shrinking the pool of potential soldiers that they could be sending directly to the front lines.

Yes, hypocracy could be at work here, folks....

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BINGO... right on the head of the nail :mace:
Isn't it amazing that the politicians stand to gain from this????

Interesting points, Ryan and others. While in theory I agree that if a 17-year old is old enough to go off to war and die for his country, he should be old enough to have a drink, I also teach high school seniors, many of whom are 18, and like high-school kids everywhere, binge drink often, sometimes with tragic consequences. I'd say I've lost about a dozen students over the years to drunk driving. And then they go off to college...:beer2:

I know when I was in high school in the early 80's, before MADD and SADD really became political forces to be reckoned with-and they were instrumental in the nation-wide crackdown on drunk driving-every kid knew which convenience stores/party shops would sell 'em beer, which older kid would get it for them (the legal age was 18), or where you could slip a 10 to a wino to get both of you something cheap for the evening in the local liquor store. I guess that's still the case.

Funny thing, when the Feds started coercing the states to gradually raise the age to 21 with the highway funds, I became legal (and then illegal) about 3 times before I turned 21, none of which prevented me from getting booze. No easy answers on this one. My half-German wife believes that the European model of younger exposure to alcohol in the home gives kids a healthier, less obsessive desire to binge on "forbidden fruit," and I suspect she's right.

I rarely had a problem obtaining alcohol at an early age. Most of my friends and peers and little problem getting it either. In fact one of my cousins was celebrating his last weekend home before his first year of college and got arrested last night for public intoxication (and a few other things I think vandalism and destruction of property.) So the law is clearly on the ineffectual side. I think if you're allowed to go to war, smoke a cigarette, and sign your life away in a legal contract you should have a beer to commemorate. All those things can ruin your life so whats one more. I'm not saying to lower the drinking age, just make them all the same. And for the record and possibly in the same vein one thing you're not going to do at 21 is rent a car. Most companies won't give one out until you reach 25 because of insurance, my friend got let go after 3 years from a limo company because the insurance company found out he was under 25.

There needs to be a uniform age of majority, be it 14 or 37. If one is mature enough to make life or death decisions behind the wheel one should also be mature enough to decide to drive drunk, having just returned from a tour with the Marines, and while celibrating successfully inseminating the neighbors darling daughter, and to vote for the politician who promised to introduce a bill to pay for all child care costs.

:beer2:

I agree with Glen, in that one can send an Enemy of the United States to Hell with his rifle, but can't buy a sixer when he rotates home.
Just my Two Cents man.

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Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

My half-German wife believes that the European model of younger exposure to alcohol in the home gives kids a healthier, less obsessive desire to binge on "forbidden fruit," and I suspect she's right.

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When I was growing up the drinking age was still at 18, I was introduced to alcohol at around 14, My mom always said, if you're going to drink, I would rather you drink at home, so it was no big thing to have a glass of wine or a beer once in a while. Having parental consent also too the "rebelliousness" out of it too as you can't really be cool sneaking around the parents back when there the ones letting you have it. It also taught responsible drinking habits. Not to say we didn't tie one on occasionally, but we got absolutely no sympathy the next day and were actually expected to do more. More of a tough love thing now that I look back at it, but I just thought they did it to torture us at the time.

I think there is a certain logic to the "same age" arguments, but they fail to take into account that beyond responsibility questions there are significant, independently verified, scientific reasons alcohol is particularly harmful to developing brains (perhaps any under 30), particularly those under the 20-23 age range.

Even if a person chooses to use alcohol responsibly at or before age 18 it is inalterably changing brian chemistry and can permanently arrest the development of major sections of the brain.

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Originally Posted by BKratchmer

I think there is a certain logic to the "same age" arguments, but they fail to take into account that beyond responsibility questions there are significant, independently verified, scientific reasons alcohol is particularly harmful to developing brains (perhaps any under 30), particularly those under the 20-23 age range.

Even if a person chooses to use alcohol responsibly at or before age 18 it is inalterably changing brian chemistry and can permanently arrest the development of major sections of the brain.

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Okay, but how does having a law saying "no booze for you until you are 21" change the reality that booze has been, and will be, procured and consumed by minors? At minimum, the laws should reflect this.

Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of a LDA, just one that is in balance with other activities associated with the age of majority.

In the U.S often times it's more about where you can buy liquor. States vary as to the days you can buy, where you can buy and where you can consume.

As far as the age goes that's all politics and business.

There are segments of the population that if they had their way prohibition never would have been repealed here.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Okay, but how does having a law saying "no booze for you until you are 21" change the reality that booze has been, and will be, procured and consumed by minors? At minimum, the laws should reflect this.

Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of a LDA, just one that is in balance with other activities associated with the age of majority.

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Well, is what is right defined by what happens?

For instance, based on your reasoning the fact that many homicides occur each year in Miami, we should change the law to reflect that by making it a misdemeanor.

The logical solution to your complaint is not to change a good law, but rather to better enforce it.

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Originally Posted by CarrieM

When I was growing up the drinking age was still at 18, I was introduced to alcohol at around 14, My mom always said, if you're going to drink, I would rather you drink at home, so it was no big thing to have a glass of wine or a beer once in a while. Having parental consent also too the "rebelliousness" out of it too as you can't really be cool sneaking around the parents back when there the ones letting you have it. It also taught responsible drinking habits. Not to say we didn't tie one on occasionally, but we got absolutely no sympathy the next day and were actually expected to do more. More of a tough love thing now that I look back at it, but I just thought they did it to torture us at the time.

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CarrieM, that's a great common sense approach to this dilemma IMHO, and one that not only reflects the European model but sounds a bit like my upbringing too. Alcohol education goes a long ways towards responsible drinking habits as an adult, much more so than laws.

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Originally Posted by BKratchmer

Well, is what is right defined by what happens?

For instance, based on your reasoning the fact that many homicides occur each year in Miami, we should change the law to reflect that by making it a misdemeanor.

The logical solution to your complaint is not to change a good law, but rather to better enforce it.

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Apples and oranges...

No one disputes that homicide is wrong, just as most would say that the ability to have a beer before 21 should not only be acceptable (due to the lower age of majority for other things) but is inevitable. I'm not sure how better enforcement will remedy the situation, other than to clog up the legal system further and to line the pockets of those who stand to profit from it. Like I said previously, education is likely the better route.

BKratchmer, when did you have your first drink? Was it on your 21st birthday (or whatever the age was when you reached it)? You obviously lived to tell the story...

Well, if you want to judge the effectiveness of a law or policy you have to present some data. Anecdotal evidence isn't really the best way to make policy.

Every single law gets broken, the only thing that can prevent somebody from doing that is the threat of the consequences of breaking it.
Now, the question is what is the cost of enforcing it and how does it stack against the cost of not enforcing it, or the situation when the law doesn't exist in the first place.

So here are the questions that have to be answered are: If there is a different or no age limit to drinking, what would be the rate of people drinking? How much higher/lower and how much more/less costly that would be to the society? What about drugs, tobacco?

I'm sure there are people who do care about these things, but at the end of the day the reality seems to be that it boils down to money, politics, talking points, etc, i.e. this is decided in a completely irrational manner, no matter which outcome.

So, unless we start looking and discussing scientific data, this thread will be just like any other political/religious thread.

In my ideal world before somebody is allowed to vote, drive, shoot, breed, and any other activity with the potential to cause big damage to others, they will have to be evaluated that they can handle that responsibility. The age doesn't matter at all, some will have to spend their lifetime without being able to do any of these things (legally that is, but in my ideal dictatorship nobody is able to break the laws either).

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Originally Posted by Bruce

There needs to be a uniform age of majority, be it 14 or 37. If one is mature enough to make life or death decisions behind the wheel one should also be mature enough to decide to drive drunk, having just returned from a tour with the Marines, and while celibrating successfully inseminating the neighbors darling daughter, and to vote for the politician who promised to introduce a bill to pay for all child care costs.
:beer2:

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Brilliant post Bruce! Thanks!

In the last few years the drinking age here in New Zealand was lowered from 20 to 18. Currently there are moves afoot to change it back - completely or in part. That would mean that you could buy in a licensed (and therefore supervised) bar at 18 but not get off-licence alcohol to take home until 20.

It was 20 when I was young and I started "drinking" at about 14 with the occasional binge when away with older friends. Wasn't a problem to purchase in a bottle store by about 16, though they are far stricter these days.

Alcohol wasn't a big part of my home life but had been trying the occasional beer or wine since about 10.

As a paramedic I see the effects of teenage drinking on a weekly basis. Not at all uncommon to get called to paralytic 14 year olds. The biggest problem seems to be that no-one is taking care of them. When I was that age the older ones looked out for the younger ones. Now they expect an ambulance to take them to hospital. Don't know how many times I've explained that the hospital doesn't need to watch someone vomit, they've seen it before!

Can be very interesting dropping kids home to their parents at 03:00. Have explained to a few that yelling isn't going to be remembered now... wait til they've had a few hours sleep and then tell them off.

My own kids are 8. They've been allowed to try Dad's beer since about 6. One approves and one doesn't. But they are already being exposed to adults drinking sensibly and the concept that alcohol can be consumed sensibly.

Cheers :beer2:

Kids at the age or 14 or 15 feel old enough to test their limits and there is no way that law could stop it for good. It can be made difficult but that is all.

I took my first beers at the age of 14 or 15. Most parents that time maybe thought that kids are going to drink anyway so there's no need for them to go and hide somewhere while they could as well do it open and safer. I got yells every now and then but now i think my grandparents did just for the record and then went laughing behind the corner.
We took care of mates if someone got too drunk.
Nowadays it's maybe different. Even kids do not always care about their friends. Maybe it is just the sign of these times and subject to another thread.

My daughter got home very drunk first time she was 17 and my son did the same at 15. I was happy to see that their friends took them here. At morning i gave them a little sermon and then fried some egg and greasy sausage. Not sort of a food you want to eat or even smell when hangover, but i said that you had a hard evening and now it is your time to eat this all to get some strength. Want it or not. And then i went laughing behind the corner.

Another thing to remember with kids is to show them whatever they do, they can always come back home and not be too scared what happens here. It is not accepting everything they do but rather showing them that we do care.

I think that the best way to teach kids how to deal with alcohol is to show some example of civilized drinking and not making alcohol some miracle taboo that should be taken fast in some hiding place. I've been seriously drunk many times but never in sight of my kids.

Maybe..we should just go back to the 1800's when you either made it or not in the gene pool based on wether you were smart/wise or smart enough to learn to be wise ,and to learn how to suvive and get with the program ,and everything in life was not an entitlement. Yes...sounds good. Shooting your mouth off and being stupid,foolish and unwise in realms of drinking,politics,war,sexual affairs etc. would make or break you. And while we are at it, let's bring back dueling. True it would be scary to have unwise people running around with weaponery(drunk no less)....But nature knows better than us eh. Sooner or later things would even out to the wise and not so wise.Then maybe a kid who just got done helping the family out with chores i.e using dangerouse tools,hard backbreaking work. And was a well learned manchild instead of some college schooled rich kid who learned how to be a drunk ,take cocaine or meth and copulate on mommy and daddies pocketbook ,could maybe enjoy a beer responsibly. Sorry...got a little heated there. I'm of the later 40's age group and I get a little touchy . Hrmph ! :medvl: Waiter...check please !

Maybe..we should just go back to the 1800's when you either made it or not in the gene pool based on wether you were smart/wise or smart enough to learn to be wise ,and to learn how to suvive and get with the program ,and everything in life was not an entitlement. Yes...sounds good. Shooting your mouth off and being stupid,foolish and unwise in realms of drinking,politics,war,sexual affairs etc. would make or break you. And while we are at it, let's bring back dueling. True it would be scary to have unwise people running around with weaponery(drunk no less)....But nature knows better than us eh. Sooner or later things would even out to the wise and not so wise.Then maybe a kid who just got done helping the family out with chores i.e using dangerouse tools,hard backbreaking work. And was a well learned manchild instead of some college schooled rich kid who learned how to be a drunk ,take cocaine or meth and copulate on mommy and daddies pocketbook ,could maybe enjoy a beer responsibly. Sorry...got a little heated there. I'm of the later 40's age group and I get a little touchy . Hrmph ! :medvl: Waiter...check please ![/QUOTE]You're a daisy if ya do.~Doc Holliday~

Really am sorry if I got a little carried away there,feels like I did. Apologies to all,this is a gentlemanly place after all and I would rather have a good shave or Heh.. a hard boiled egg to reference someones quote I read on this site. Good cheer to all.:fim:

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Originally Posted by Nightblade

Really am sorry if I got a little carried away there,feels like I did. Apologies to all,this is a gentlemanly place after all and I would rather have a good shave or Heh.. a hard boiled egg to reference someones quote I read on this site. Good cheer to all.:fim:

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Actually what you say has merit. I was taught to drink in the west Texas oil fields when a young man who was willing to work on a crew (16 for me) at that time could step up to the bar. But, you learned quickly in that in a man's man environment that words and actions meant something, and you were responsable for them...If you over drank, shot off your mouth then folks were apt to cold **** you and throw out into the street and you couldn't go back until you learned some manners..The problem today is young men think like women (and I steal this famous quote grom Jack Nicholson) "to think like a woman; all I do is think like a man and take away reason and accountablility"......Make people more accountable for their action and I guarantee they will be more responsible...No offfense against women in that comment ..the offense is against men acting like men.

there in Belgium the legal age to drink is 16, 18 for the heavy stuff. but usually if you go to a shop as a 14 of 15 year old you never have a problem getting boose (well I didn't).

but to drive a car, vote, etc. you have to be 18

I drink and I am a Platoon Sergeant for an Army Scout platoon. Credentials being established, I have a strong feeling on the military portion of this discussion. I very much agreed that if you were old enough for war than you were old enough for alcohol years ago. However, now I am in charge of 27 Soldiers, ranging in age from 18-30+. Too many times I have been awakened to hear how one of my youngins has got himself arrested and everytime alcohol was involved. The younger generations are very smart but smart does not equal wise or responsible. Sadly, responsibility is waning more and more these days. The Army currently sets the drinking and purchasing age at 21 regardless of State laws. Most of my boys can't wait for that bday to have their blowout and more times than not, it ends in trouble with the law or a badger-like Sergeant tipping you onto the floor and striping you up and down. I cringe everytime I hear the "go to war" justification because deep down inside I know it too often isn't earned. A boy is a boy is a boy..... IMHO of course. Have a great CAV day my SRPudians!

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Originally Posted by Ulfherjar

I drink and I am a Platoon Sergeant for an Army Scout platoon. Credentials being established, I have a strong feeling on the military portion of this discussion. I very much agreed that if you were old enough for war than you were old enough for alcohol years ago. However, now I am in charge of 27 Soldiers, ranging in age from 18-30+. Too many times I have been awakened to hear how one of my youngins has got himself arrested and everytime alcohol was involved. The younger generations are very smart but smart does not equal wise or responsible. Sadly, responsibility is waning more and more these days. The Army currently sets the drinking and purchasing age at 21 regardless of State laws. Most of my boys can't wait for that bday to have their blowout and more times than not, it ends in trouble with the law or a badger-like Sergeant tipping you onto the floor and striping you up and down. I cringe everytime I hear the "go to war" justification because deep down inside I know it too often isn't earned. A boy is a boy is a boy..... IMHO of course. Have a great CAV day my SRPudians!

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I don't know about the rest of you, but at 18 and given the choice I'd rather have a beer than be deployed. Legally, of course....;)

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Originally Posted by gugi

Well, if you want to judge the effectiveness of a law or policy you have to present some data. Anecdotal evidence isn't really the best way to make policy.

Every single law gets broken, the only thing that can prevent somebody from doing that is the threat of the consequences of breaking it.
Now, the question is what is the cost of enforcing it and how does it stack against the cost of not enforcing it, or the situation when the law doesn't exist in the first place.

So here are the questions that have to be answered are: If there is a different or no age limit to drinking, what would be the rate of people drinking? How much higher/lower and how much more/less costly that would be to the society? What about drugs, tobacco?

I'm sure there are people who do care about these things, but at the end of the day the reality seems to be that it boils down to money, politics, talking points, etc, i.e. this is decided in a completely irrational manner, no matter which outcome.

So, unless we start looking and discussing scientific data, this thread will be just like any other political/religious thread.

In my ideal world before somebody is allowed to vote, drive, shoot, breed, and any other activity with the potential to cause big damage to others, they will have to be evaluated that they can handle that responsibility. The age doesn't matter at all, some will have to spend their lifetime without being able to do any of these things (legally that is, but in my ideal dictatorship nobody is able to break the laws either).

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I don't know what it is about the conversation forum, things always get heavy and someone inevitably demands imperical, scientific data. Why? This is a discussion, not a case study or topic for a masters' thesis. No policies or laws will be changed because the gents over at SRP debated the matter. But in a perfect world...:D

At this point we've heard from many of us old(er) guys, as well as CarrieM, but I'd personally like to hear the perspective of some of our younger members as well, those who are in the under-21 bracket. Or would that just be too predictable....:)

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

At this point we've heard from many of us old(er) guys, as well as CarrieM, but I'd personally like to hear the perspective of some of our younger members as well, those who are in the under-21 bracket. Or would that just be too predictable....:)

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that would be me but I have no problem with it since I live in belgium and I can drink

[QUOTE=Nightblade;644660]Maybe..we should just go back to the 1800's when you either made it or not in the gene pool based on wether you were smart/wise or smart enough to learn to be wise ,and to learn how to suvive and get with the program ,and everything in life was not an entitlement. Yes...sounds good. Shooting your mouth off and being stupid,foolish and unwise in realms of drinking,politics,war,sexual affairs etc. would make or break you. And while we are at it, let's bring back dueling.


I like it Nightblade! :medvl:

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Okay, but how does having a law saying "no booze for you until you are 21" change the reality that booze has been, and will be, procured and consumed by minors? At minimum, the laws should reflect this.

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It's not whether or not under age people still illegally get the alcohol (they always will)- it's that the laws are there already to discourage it and give out the consequences if you break it and are caught. It does work like that too. I'm sure murder rates would sky-rocket if made legal.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

CarrieM, that's a great common sense approach to this dilemma IMHO, and one that not only reflects the European model but sounds a bit like my upbringing too. Alcohol education goes a long ways towards responsible drinking habits as an adult, much more so than laws.

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The problem with that is that the "European model" isn't at all a good one. Europe has more rampant under age drinking problems than the US does.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

I don't know what it is about the conversation forum, things always get heavy and someone inevitably demands imperical, scientific data. Why?

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Because Gugi always gets involved! lol