Don't blame Pres. Obama...

...maybe he just can't help himself.:)

Take a gander here:

Researchers Find the 'Liberal Gene' - FoxNews.com

I haven't delved deeply into this matter but I have noticed it coming up a bit lately and became curious as to what my Shaving brethren think.
While I believe our genes play a part in our make up it seems as if stories like these help to remove our ideas of personal responsibility, the ability to think and choose for oneself, taken to the logical conclusion we are just "meat" robots pre-programmed. It swings a real blow against freedom of thought and action. I mean are we sentient? are we capable of true choice? or are we just pre-programmed automatons programmed to delude ourselves that we do have choices and can think for ourselves.

What say you?

I just had a thought...maybe we are pre-programmed like a computer. all our likes and dislikes, all our actions and reactions,everything down to the smallest detail pre-programmed...until our higher nature is capable of taking over the ship. maybe our fits in our teenage years, our middle age crisis is our programmed self and our higher self in conflict...not quite ready for the "takeover or "marriage" if you will.

Am I high? what do you think.

YouTube - Freewill Rush Lyrics

I voted for him and given the same choices I would do so again. He inherited a mess and he seems to be out of his depth. He seems to be more interested in Wall Street than Main Street. I'm very disappointed that he is continuing the previous administration's policies in the two wars.

We ought to be out of there IMO. A waste of our people and our resources. Like Nam we will end up leaving, accomplishing nothing but wasting lives and money. Sad that all of these ego freaks that end up in there fall into the same trap. They don't want to be the one to lose the un-winnable war. :boohoo:

As for me I'm not represented by either party. I'm an FDR, Lyndon Johnson kind of democrat. Not the millionaire ilk that is in the house and senate today. They sold us out just like their republican brethren for filthy lucre. Killed the goose that laid the golden egg, the American middle class. That is my take anyhow, YMMV. Believe what you want, it is still sort of a free country. :rant:End of rant.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I voted for him and given the same choices I would do so again. He inherited a mess and he seems to be out of his depth. He seems to be more interested in Wall Street than Main Street. I'm very disappointed that he is continuing the previous administration's policies in the two wars.

We ought to be out of there IMO. A waste of our people and our resources. Like Nam we will end up leaving, accomplishing nothing but wasting lives and money. Sad that all of these ego freaks that end up in there fall into the same trap. They don't want to be the one to lose the un-winnable war. :boohoo:

As for me I'm not represented by either party. I'm an FDR, Lyndon Johnson kind of democrat. Not the millionaire ilk that is in the house and senate today. They sold us out just like their republican brethren for filthy lucre. Killed the goose that laid the golden egg, the American middle class. That is my take anyhow, YMMV. It is sort of a free country. :rant:End of rant.

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Sorry Jimmy. that was only a device to grab attention to my real question which is, do we have free will or are we "meat" robots or maybe there is another option.
I invite all to explore this question with me.

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Originally Posted by JMS

Sorry Jimmy. that was only a device to grab attention to my real question which is, do we have free will or are we "meat" robots or maybe there is another option.
I invite all to explore this question with me.

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Sorry Mark, I didn't get it. Old timer's disease I guess. :confused: I have free will ..... just because the label says Escher I don't have to buy it unless I want to ...... and I usually want to. :p

I might need a new signature.

We tend to develop our ideas from others, particularly our parents, at least in political realms. Rarely does anyone that pushes a political agenda have any critical thought behind their agenda, at least in my experience. They believe what they believe, and according to most studies, believe in those ideas, because they are emulating others.

At least that's what I was taught in college.

As you know I don't particularly pay attention to political discussions because they always seemed self serving and not oriented toward protections for the general populace. Or they are oriented toward the assumption that most people are like the person who is pushing the agenda.

Politics and religion are very similar. We believe what we believe and no fact will change our perception. I don't think it's in the genes unless you consider listening to your parents "in the genes".

Well that tidbit came from Fox-news so you just know it came from the horse's... mouth?

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Originally Posted by JMS

Sorry Jimmy. that was only a device to grab attention to my real question which is, do we have free will or are we "meat" robots or maybe there is another option.
I invite all to explore this question with me.

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I believe that we have what I'd describe (for lack of any kind of term that even gets close) as a structured free will. In this sense, we are agents without the ability to control all of our circumstances, but have the ability to choose otherwise for any given situation. Some choices may be unlikely and unrealistic, but they exist.

$0.02

It is a clip from FoxNews.. I give it about as much respect as I do the Enquirer :mace:

A genetic study published in a POLITICAL journal and not a MEDICAL journal is not serious. How can political experts be aware if the study was conducted properly and if the methodology is scientifically sound ? Impossible.

There are WAY too many factors to take into account to link your "openess" to 1 cause.

I can link plenty of things to any cause of my liking if I wanted to. For example, my razors rusts when I leave them in the bathroom. Since I use Dove soap & it's in the bathroom at the same time as my razor, I can conclude that Dove causes my razors to rust. If I wanted to publish that, the last journal I'd call would be a scientific one...

Since this seems to be the way the thread is going to go anyway, just a few thoughts to stir the pot.

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Originally Posted by Glenn24

A genetic study published in a POLITICAL journal and not a MEDICAL journal is not serious.

This is not a claim that you can make until you have read the original article (and unless you are a good consumer of genetic research yourself). Many studies get accepted for publication in journals that might not be 100% obvious why. Academics looking for tenure and a legacy will take them wherever they can. There are maybe a handful that would be too proud, but most will take a publication in an odd source than no publication

How can political experts be aware if the study was conducted properly and if the methodology is scientifically sound ? Impossible.

Well on that note, who is to say that "experts" will be aware anyway? There are so many flaws in peer reviewed journal articles out there that people have made their entire careers out of fighting back and forth with other researchers about why one or the other doesn't understand some aspect of what they are doing.


There are WAY too many factors to take into account to link your "openess" to 1 cause. Probably true, but have you actually done any research around this? This is the way things usually start, then researchers start trying to focus on likely contributing factors and search for those that account for more of the outcome than others.

I can link plenty of things to any cause of my liking if I wanted to. For example, my razors rusts when I leave them in the bathroom. Since I use Dove soap & it's in the bathroom at the same time as my razor, I can conclude that Dove causes my razors to rust. If I wanted to publish that, the last journal I'd call would be a scientific one...

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Unless someone designed a solid experiment with proper scientific measures/procedures and established evidence that the dove soap was contributing to the rust, and eliminated some of the alternative explanations.

It is an amazing thing to watch. everyday ordinary reasonable people suddenly snap their minds shut at the mention of FOX news. its quite an audible snap too. every time i see it I recall an image of my children, fingers in their ears, eyes shut, screaming "NANANANANANANA I CANT HEAR YOU NANANANANANA" as if something bad will get into their brain.

I'll be honest, I didn't even read the story. I just read the headline and lightly perused the article to about the half way point. The article was not the important part. FOX news wasn't the important part. it was the questions I asked that was the important part to this thread...at least to me. So, if you can lay your prejudices aside for the moment and respond to my questions I will appreciate it, otherwise, please don't bother to respond.

I would like to thank JimmyHAD, Delirium, and AFDavis for responding to the question ( even though Jimmy didn't get it at first:)) without the prejudgment and rancour that came from some of the others.

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Originally Posted by JMS

ranker

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Did you mean rancour?

And though I am tempted to blame the President, I will not do so at this time. :) Because I choose not to!

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Did you mean rancour?

And though I am tempted to blame the President, I will not do so at this time. :) Because I choose not to!

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I did indeed. Thanks for bringing that to my attention

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Originally Posted by JMS

I did indeed. Thanks for bringing that to my attention

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Anythyme, that's what fronds are four!

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Originally Posted by JMS

...maybe he just can't help himself.:)

Take a gander here:

Researchers Find the 'Liberal Gene' - FoxNews.com

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The article said that the liberal gene means you're more open.

Sounds like a good thing to have in a president.

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Originally Posted by JMS

It is an amazing thing to watch. everyday ordinary reasonable people suddenly snap their minds shut at the mention of FOX news.

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Sorry.. I did actually read the article it just it seems common place for certain news sites to bring together a "weird" combination in order to increase page views similar to what the Enquirer does with those wonderful Bat boy images.

It seems that what they really found was a "social" gene and that because these people are more of a social person and seek more friends they tend to see more thus having a more liberal view. Basically if you are extroverted you tend to be more liberal and if you are introverted you may be more conservative. I think they put it into a political context to increase their page views and stir up conversation during this election year.

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Originally Posted by Troggie

Sorry.. I did actually read the article it just it seems common place for certain news sites to bring together a "weird" combination in order to increase page views similar to what the Enquirer does with those wonderful Bat boy images.

...I think they put it into a political context to increase their page views and stir up conversation during this election year.

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That is very likely, in fact I think that is exactly what they did.
how do you feel about the idea of free will verses "programmed" I mean where do we stand? I like the idea of free will but do we actually have free will?

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Originally Posted by NYCshaver

The article said that the liberal gene means you're more open.

Sounds like a good thing to have in a president.

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Openness is a very nice quality indeed. I have not meant many (if any) liberals who are open to me and my ideas though...so much for openness.

What do you think on my other questions?

Free will is what you make it.. kind of similar to the thread about what is Good vs Evil. Free will is another one of those society based areas.. I have free will enough to take a baseball bat and club someone to death but I don't because it is not socially acceptable to do something in this "civilized" world where back in the cave man times it may have been.

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Originally Posted by JMS

Openness is a very nice quality indeed. I have not meant many (if any) liberals who are open to me and my ideas though...so much for openness.

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So they're only open if they agree with you?

I'd listen to your ideas but it doesn't mean I'd agree with them.

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Originally Posted by JMS

What do you think on my other questions?

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I believe we have free will with most aspects of life.

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Originally Posted by NYCshaver

So they're only open if they agree with you?

I'd listen to your ideas but it doesn't mean I'd agree with them.

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Then you and I could be friends...but more often than not I hear that audible snap signifying that all meaningful conversation is over before finish my first sentence when talking with others with opposing views.

EDIT: maybe that kneejerk reaction that people of all beliefs have is the programming and reasonable discussion Is the free will.

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Originally Posted by NYCshaver

The article said that the liberal gene means you're more open.

Sounds like a thing a president wants in an intern.

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fixed that for you.


As for being meat robots, There are only three things in this life that you are REQUIRED to do, the rest are choices.

1. You have to be born.
2. You have to die.
3. You have to live until you die.

The remainder of your life is a choice, and subject to free will. That is the beauty of how God made us. I think some people made be more predisposed to make one choice over another, but it is still a choice.


Matt

I do not believe that there is such thing as absolute free will, or at least it is very rare. We are free to make choices on given options, but usually our decisions are affected by our past: our education, parents, experiences, sense of responsibility, etc and at some amount might be even genes. Some people make decisions based mostly only on their political, religious etc ideologies. Sarcastically could be said that we are mostly prisoners of our past and present.
Human behavior is usually inevitable in many cases. Even marketing agencies and salesmen know this. Political and religious leaders use this fact as a tool when shepherding crowds.

A creature with absolute free will (free from any outside/inside factors such as society, laws, other people and even instinct of self preservation) wouldn't survive for long (yes i've read my Darwin).

Jims link was very interesting but i see it only as a sad example how some institutes want to saddle everything to suit their own agendas. It is hard to believe that the original research mentions anything about politics. What i'm more worried is that there are surely people who take this kind of 'news' for real, if it just happens to suit their own visions.

I am not sure but i think there was an error in that text also: Not only 40% of all people have this or that gene. Everyone does have it (excluding mutants). About 40% of people might have some gene dominant.
After all it is just another zero research. There are many other charming researches such as: people who have problems with their weight usually are not so physically fit either or redheads have better sex :confused:

I think the main flaw of the article, is that politically speaking, "liberals" are indeed liberal and "conservatives" are conservative which in reality is very far from the truth. In other words mand liberals do not understand fully what they are liberal about and many conservatives do not even know what they are conserving. The people who put forth these ideas are charlatans. They hide true agendas in the name of science.


The Articles of United States Constitution could be the most Liberating ideas of contemporary history. It is a living attempt to create an minimalistic form of governance where people can live and freely think without the pitfalls of complete Democracy.