Ultimate Test of Civility ~ 2nd Amendment

I dont think anyone here "hates" any country. They may not care for one (Iraq doens't seem to be very popular for instance) but "hate" is a very strong word that can only be used in such broad terms by people who've lost their mind.

As for the way Kees anc ilja present their idea's.
They're simply critical of what they see. And it's always easier to be critical of what you see in someone else.
The problem is that every government is run by men(and women). And we as human being have restrictions and shortcomings. Because of that all our govenments also have shortcomings. I'm sure that the american govenrment hasn't always been right in what they've done. But then again I'm pretty sure that neither has our Dutch government or the canadian one or the english one or even me personally for that fact.

As for the arabs. There's a few nutjobs from that groups around here as well. But there's also plenty of people who're morokkan, turkish, Iraqui, Iranian, afghan etc here that integrate well and love the country that they've come to live in.

I suggest this thread is left alone. When things like this are discussed feelings always get hotheaded and people let their feelings get in the way of their reasoning. It's impossible not to, you're human.

Seems like the test of civility has failed Bill. I've read through the entire thing in pretty much one go. And let's face it. It's very...VERY difficult to be nice to someone when you can't see their face or hear the tone in their voice when the express their opinion.

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Originally Posted by JLStorm

Wait a minute Joe, one groups like that are hard to shoot without some serious training and recoil control! That takes a lot of training with a .40 or higher which I believe was what he was using in that scene, and the speed at which he shot was just perfect, people train professionaly for years and cant accomplish that.

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I never said I didn't admire the shooting prowess.

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(minus head shot) would have been the real life answer, then giving his buddy the chance to run, which it looks like he would have. If you honestly think that the guy with the gun was just just a harmless thug and that stopping him by shooting was cold blooded murder (minus the head shot) than I pray you never encounter a situation anything like this, because your values would surely be the death of you and those with you.

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I didn't say anything like that. Take a look at what I did say. I said nobody would favor those thugs, but the Tom Cruise character was not the "nice guy." I think the director made it clear in that scene and I think you agree.

My only comment (please read it) was that if the previous post was serious and Bill identified with the shooter as a nice guy, he was a sick puppy. I stick by that.

We are living in a dangerous world nowadays. Every time we pump gas some more of our hard-earned cash flows to an Arab warlord who, with heavily armed cronies, is waiting for an opportunity to attack the free world. Unfortunately in the free West we are so attached to our comfortable lifestyles we can no longer live without our oil guzzling contrivances so the Arabs keep getting richer and buy ever more sophisticated weaponry with the ultimate goal of annihilating Christian civilization.

Some less brainy, deluded men and women in the West (comrade Lenin would have called them useful idiots) dare say in public that not all Arabs are bad. That most of them are peaceful shepherds in the desert like their ancestors before the oil in their soils was discovered.

Fortunately the trusted leader of the free world G.W. Bush outwitted those useful idiots. He made almost everyone believe that Arabs are bad people and that one of their leaders, a former U.S. ally in the war against Iran, was developing weapons of mass destruction..

All is well that ends well. The weapons of mass destruction proved a white lie but Saddam is behind bars now and will be tried for genocide by his own people. The occupation of Iraq sparked a violent civil war. Shi’ites killing Sunnis, Sunnis killing Shi’ites and Kurds with a few unfortunate GIs caught in the middle. Given enough time the Arabs will stamp out one another and their oil will be up for grabs.

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Originally Posted by urleebird

What I saw was self defense, and that's what I was responding to... an act of self defense. I'm really not surprised too much that lord lerch would find something else stupid to say.

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So, you didn't see him shoot the disabled thug in the head as he walked away? That's murder.

Thanks for your keen insight into intelligent thought and human nature. I think think you've shown us all who you are.

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

I guess the question reaised her is not wether the action of the last shot was legal (it was not) but wether the action of the last shot could be considered moral, or ethical.

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I believe the last shot and the way he took it was an directorial effect. He didn't want us to sympathize with this guy in any way or believe that he was not a murderer.

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

If the DA's office was so inept that they couldn't prove that he was guilty beyond reasonable doubt then the trial was fair, unless you want to scrap democracy/the constitution and switch to a summary justice and guilt by implication system.

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Bill notwithstanding, there is no question that the trial was fair. That has to do with how the defendant was treated and whether he got all his rights.

The dispute is with the outcome. And you're right, if the government blew it the trial is still fair. What people generally complain about is whether the outcome was just. The popular conception is that OJ was acquitted because it was a black jury. That popular conception is held by non-blacks, and black people generally go the other way. So, you could say the US is racist and that's just another example. I don't think so. I'm not racist and I believe that the trial had the wrong outcome because of the racial balance of the jury.

It's not a widely known thing, but there's something called jury cancellation in our system. Nobody can force a juries decision and an acquittal cna't be reversed, because the jury must decide guilt. So, if a jury wishes, it can acquit in any case- jury cancellation.

Before and after the OJ trial there was a lot of discussion going on about his guilt. I found it shocking how racially based it is. I have quite a few black colleagues who are solid middle class and lawyers, and they all believed OJ was not guilty. They mistrusted the police and believed the evidence was tainted or set up. If what I noticed was true generally, it was impossible for OJ to be convicted by a primarily black jury, may be by any jury with lack jurrors. The constitution requires trial by a jury of peers, which implies racial balance. As shocking as the OJ verdict was, it has to be considerd a fair trial. If a guilty man was let go, it was not because the trial was unfair. AN all white jury would have made it a clearly unfair trial, and that may have been the only way he could have benn convicted.

[quote=urleebird;70050]

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What I saw was self defense, and that's what I was responding to... an act of self defense.

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If you saw that, yoou're probably the only one. When your assailant is disabled and you're out of danger, self defense is over. I don't remember if the gun was still nearby, but all he had to was kick it out of reach. Shooting him in the head is murder.

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I'm really not surprised too much that lord lerch would find something else stupid to say.

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And I'm not surprized that you didn't see this was murder. I wonder what happened to you that so distorted your mind, tha you see an attacker lurking aound every corner who must be destroyed, even after you're no longer in danger. You can't stick your head i the sand. We all love our country at least as much as you do, but "my country right or wrong went out with the Neuremberg Trials. One of our most important duties in a democracy is to make sur our country doesn'r cross the line. To you there's no line, just like there's no line between self defense and murder.

I couldn't care less whether you read my posts or not. Your narrow mind could only have one response anyhow. And I don't say that without some sadness. Everyone else here has revealed some level of judgment. You have revealed only a gut reaction that makes the source of every critical comment about the US an American hater and every modrate person a lover of criminals or teerrorists. How sad you are!

Lincoln said "You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." I think you're through fooling us. We all see what you stand for, and it's clearly not something American or democratic. I didn't know what you meant by "your kind of people, but I'm beginning to get an idea.

So, you shouldn't be surprized when people disagree with your political statements. When your friends criticize you, you need to stop and think. The greatest critics here were from countries that are traditional political allies of the US and share the ideals of democracy with us. That would give me pause, and I wouldn't lash out at them toughtlessly, but apparently that's your reaction to anyone who disagrees with you. Find someplace in this thread where you were'nt antagonistic towards someone who disagreed.

I can't say for sure, but I think I know youu on an online basis longer than anyone here. We were PMing and getting along in a friendly way on Yahoo SRP long before this (com) site existed. The first sign of friction came in September when you made a sharp reply to something in one of my posts and I responded in kind. I got the crudest, threatening PM in response. Since then, you and I have been walking on eggshells. Last week, I even sent you a PM (unanswered) saying that I didn't despise you and we shouldn't be enemies, since we would be running into each other here continually.

So, I don't expect any more from you than what I see here. Ignorance is bliss and yours is incredible. Do you notice that this response is personal? It's a personal response to a personal attack. Now, I'll jus sit back, and I expect you to alienate the rest of the people that disagree with you.

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See... now if you guys will quit quoting him, I won't have to be so crusty... :roflmao

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There's a big difference between crusty and bigotry. Obviously you haven't figure it out yet.

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Originally Posted by urleebird

Neither one of you is paying attention because you just want the US to be the bad guy... no matter what. You have made that so so so obvious in almost everything you say. The World Trade Center was not the first attack, or did you forget? More than 3,000 people die in a single act of terrorism and the first thing out of your mouths is that you want some kind of fair trial.

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Give me a break Bill. You're tucked away safely on the other side of the continent. I was in the middle of it. I lost friends and neighbors. Good friends of mine lost a son in his 20s. I lived with the stench, shock and despair for months after that. Your only solution is mass destruction of Moslems. People like the guys you attack loved us after 9/11. My fax machine didn't stop running the next few days, and it was all support from our friends and their pouring out their hearts. We had full hearted support from the world after that going into Afghanisatan, and we would have had similar support in almost anything we did to fight terrorism.

Then we attacked Iraq and forgot about terrorism. Sweeping out the political party responsible in this last election was an indicatiion that the people had realized what we had done wrong. We were subjected to lies and daily spin in support of that enterprize, so it's not surprizing that people at a distance saw it before we did. No, I don't hate the US. I love it enough to prevent it from continuing to going astray, and so, apparently, do a majority of the people. You have made your sacrafices for this country, and I respect you for it. I don't condone continuing to kill countless humans in an effort with little hope of success.

You're very quick to criticize others for not offering a solution. Well, you really haven't either. Massacre is not a solution. And I know you would have no problem pressing the button to do it, just like you would have had no problem shooting that guy in the head. I did offer a solution, and at least one person here responded to it.

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When we first started this thread, I thought you were intelligent. I have changed my mind.

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How interesting! And do you suppose that nobody has changed their mind about you, now that we see who you really are?

Bill, you started this thread and gave it an appropriate name. If you want to see who failed the test of civility, just look at your last post and how Ilija and Kees responded.

You have said far more than enough to demonstrate who has trouble being civil. There is no way these kinds of discussions can go on if people take personal offense to everything and attack others personally.

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The thing is that on issues like guns and abortion, and politics, people have already locked in firmly to the side in which they believe. It doesn't matter how many convincing points are made with common sense as a companion. Neither side is going to change their mind... Someone always says something stupid. When the other person responds to the stupidity, the war of words begin.

Allow me to illiterate:(illustrate, for those of you who didn't get it...:) )
Guns Kill People
No kidding... but that's a stupid catch-phrase argument for not allowing guns. So, the gun advocate comes back with an insult, and there ya go. It's on...

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I'm quoting myself to make my point. I also want to let you know, Lerch and Ilija, that you got played like a used fiddle.

I said that no one changes their mind on issues like these. One person says something stupid and it picks up steam from there. I said things that I knew would make you come back with the opposite of anything I said. And in the end, you proved the point.

Oh, and please, Lerch, do tell me what I'm all about. I can't believe you are so friggin' stupid. You got so blinded in disagreement just because I pissed you off that you couldn't even see what was in front of your face in plain english... written down so you could actually go back and see what was said.

Just as a simple example. Murder. Let me reiterate what I said. Maybe if I put it in bigger letters, you will catch on.

It was self defense because the guy had a gun pointed to his nose. The last shot in the head was not necessary if he had no gun in his hand. Kick it away? The other guy was going for his gun in his belt line. The fact that the situation might have involved three bad guys instead of two isn't the point.

What confrontation have you ever faced? My guess it was spitting at returning veterans from Vietnam at your local airport.

I also think it is time for you and Ilija-the-Spirit-Guide to turn in your moderator caps if you are going to burden everyone with your own personal bias and insults. Moderators need to be neutral. Neither of you seem to be able to tell us what you think without insulting someone or bombarding us with stupidity. (Oh, please... ask me where) Neither of you are as smart as you think you are. Ilija is just young, educated, and ignorant. If he would actually listen instead of blab all the time, he may learn something eventually. He does have some good points... I think he has a good heart. I just don't want him in charge of ANYTHING! And I don't want to read him anymore.

You, I just don't like. I'm easily figured by what I write and so are you. There isn't anything about you that I like. I'm a smart ass, I know. But I make my opinions known that they are just that... my opinions. You, on the other hand, present your opinions as facts. The way you think... you should not be allowed to interpret a single word of the Constitution. 35 years? So what... it takes some people longer to catch on than others. I'm certainly glad you will never have the power to mess with it.

Y'see, if the both of you turn in your moderator hats, I can use the ignore feature for the both of you. The way it stands, the system won't allow me to shut the both of you off. I am not interested in a single syllable coming out of your keyboard. Believe me, I've tried to block you. You are a pompous ass charlatan who pretends to be an intellectual. If I say things to piss people off, they can turn me off with the ignore feature. I want to be able to do that with you.

Initially, I was going to let this die, telling myself that I was right about the opposite view, but I got pissed after reading the bullshit the both of you were spreading on the thread about Freedom Of Choice. Where does it say that your word is the one that counts? You arrogant puke...

It has gotten to the point that I am not enjoying hanging around srp as much. Ilija needs to get off his ass, get a job, and quit answering every single post that is generated. You need to quit spending so much company time at the computer enlightening us with your wisdom. What you say has no value to me.

I'm fed up... ain't bein' nice no more. If you want more... bring it on. It's time to address this two-man circle jerk you and Ilija have goin' on. You ended this thread with the intention of trying to embarass me. I'm not embarassed. I am proud of who I am and what I do and the things I have accomplished and how I treat people. I know when I have insulted someone... you are so into yourself, you may not know any better.