Are you "Furious".

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Originally Posted by MasterMason03

If you can say with a straight face that Our Dear Leader is not a Marxist, then you must be on Pluto. Obama governs in such an extra-constitutional matter, that is what is so spooky.

As with my previous post, the one about spirited debate. I fully stand behind my remarks and the remarks of people who disagree with me.

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Obama isn't any more of a Marxist than Bush before him.
He's not a socialist either. He doesn't behave anything like the actual socialists, like those who are member of the socialist party in various European governments, including ours.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Do you guys have any idea how many federal investigations go south with serious to tragic consequences? Do you think no one finds out about it and it just slips under the rug? I say this with personal knowledge. Those incidents are investigated and dealt with EXACTLY the way this one is. The only difference this time is the right wing media in a continual quest to discredit this administration leaves no stone unturned to find anything and use their wind-age to blow it out of proportion hoping the mainstream media will then pick it up to give it legitimacy. The old watch phrase once again is "don't confuse me with the facts I've already made up my mind".

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Oh, and the Liberals don't do exactly the same thing? Scooter Libby went to jail for exactly the same thing, lying to Congress.

Holder should lose his job and go to jail.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I agree with you about lying to congress. That is a big nono. No discussion there. And Obama is burning his hands by doing this.

However, allowing shipments of guns to go through is no different from the DEA allowing certain shipments to go through in order to get to the big fish. Similar patterns exist with the IRS and SEC, and probably every 3 letter agency. They are happy enough to grant immunity to the little fish in order to get testimony and cooperation, and to turn a blind eye towards small scale things.

You can't really pin that sort of thing on the individuals or political parties involved. This has been going on since a long time, across the entire political spectrum.

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No there is a huge difference here.

Allowing drugs to go through? In this case the ATF even supplied the money for the purchases. All this only came to light when other ATF agents tried to bust the Gun Stores involved. The left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

This seems like an example: http://straightrazorpalace.com/conve...love-rage.html

Seems there can be "grey" areas when it comes to dead people and accountability.

James.

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The cases aren't parallel. The problem was admitted to immediately, there was no coverup, the Grand Jury got all the facts right away and made their decision.

From Wiki:

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On the evening of December 14, 2010, U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and others were patrolling Peck Canyon, Santa Cruz County, Arizona, 11 miles from the Mexican border. The group came across five suspected illegal immigrants. When they fired non-lethal beanbag guns, the suspects responded with their own weapons, leading to a firefight. Agent Terry was shot and killed; four of the suspects were arrested and two AK-pattern rifles were found nearby.

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I don't live close to the border so I wasn't aware of this. Is it common for illegal immigrants (or those attempting to immigrate) to carry and make use of automatic assault rifles inside US borders? That's a serious issue concerning national security.

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Oh, and the Liberals don't do exactly the same thing?

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I don't understand your point with this statement.

I still wonder if we have any thoughts on the actual people who are actually using the guns to commit crimes. Ok, so the DOJ made a big mistake. But they've still lived their entire lives trying to stop crime and keep us safe. That doesn't buy them any credit at all with you? While the criminals shooting at border agents don't even make the blame list? Yes, crucify the men who made a mistake in their tactics in fighting violent crime. Nevermind about the ones who actually killed people. Regardless if we'd let the guns walk, those people would still have had guns, and they still would have used them. To blame the government for the actions of violent criminals, and send the men who are saints by comparison to jail for not letting us know all the details seems just a little short sighted for me.

Xuz, a good friend of mine was shot in the chest by an illegal immigrant 8 years ago while working as a border agent. It's not a new occurrence.

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

I don't understand your point with this statement.

I still wonder if we have any thoughts on the actual people who are actually using the guns to commit crimes. Ok, so the DOJ made a big mistake. But they've still lived their entire lives trying to stop crime and keep us safe. That doesn't buy them any credit at all with you? While the criminals shooting at border agents don't even make the blame list? Yes, crucify the men who made a mistake in their tactics in fighting violent crime. Nevermind about the ones who actually killed people. Regardless if we'd let the guns walk, those people would still have had guns, and they still would have used them. To blame the government for the actions of violent criminals, and send the men who are saints by comparison to jail for not letting us know all the details seems just a little short sighted for me.

Xuz, a good friend of mine was shot in the chest by an illegal immigrant 8 years ago while working as a border agent. It's not a new occurrence.

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You are missing the point of the whole discussion and controversy.

F&F was a failure and got a lot of people killed. That is a given and not up for debate.

The controversy is the denial of the Justice Department and the ATF that they knew it was going on. About Holder lying about what he knew and being caught at it already. The refusal to give up documents about who knew what and when. The "7000 documents" Holder is supposed to have given up are a joke. I've seen those documents and they are 90% black with all the text covered up. Some of them are 100% black. Congress has the legal power to investigate the whole affair and the ATF and the White House are refusing.

The Executive Privilege is being abused. The procedure for EP is that the documents are produced and logged and then suppressed if National Security is inolved, not just hidden and kept completely secret. The President has never had the power to hide behind EP to this extent.

So Holder, a man who has spent his life defending us from violent criminals, deserves to go to jail for not wanting to risk all of the documentation being seen by private citizens? Or by people who could convict him? Or by violent criminals with internet access? I really think there is a whole world of consequences OTHER than him going to jail that could have influenced his decision. I'm a little disturbed that a private citizen has seen ANY documents. There are some things, we just should not have access to.

As for the EP being abused, I don't know. I believe on the largest scale, decisions are being made with the best intentions for all involved. But, I've also just been informed by SWMBO that I'm a little too idealistic to participate in political discussions...bummer. She's informed me that people are hired to bring stuff like this to forums and "stir the koolaid" so to speak. So, I'm out. Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

Oh, and the Liberals don't do exactly the same thing? Scooter Libby went to jail for exactly the same thing, lying to Congress.

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Nope, your statement is plain wrong (big surprise here).

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

Holder should lose his job and go to jail.

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Or not.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

You are missing the point of the whole discussion and controversy.

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Let me see if I got it right - you watched enough right wing propaganda to get 'Furious' and now you are know it all telling us how it everything went down.

Let me suggest that you consult the US constitution and the US laws, especially in cases where you have pre-made your opinion regardless of how little information you have and how correct it may be.

Last time I checked you were neither on Mr. Issa's committee nor were you a qualified attorney providing legal opinion, so furious or not your opinion is worth only as much as your vote in the next election.
BTW based on your record of continually posting wrong facts in these threads, I don't trust a single word you post about politics.

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

So Holder, a man who has spent his life defending us from violent criminals, deserves to go to jail for not wanting to risk all of the documentation being seen by private citizens? Or by people who could convict him? Or by violent criminals with internet access? I really think there is a whole world of consequences OTHER than him going to jail that could have influenced his decision. I'm a little disturbed that a private citizen has seen ANY documents. There are some things, we just should not have access to.

As for the EP being abused, I don't know. I believe on the largest scale, decisions are being made with the best intentions for all involved. But, I've also just been informed by SWMBO that I'm a little too idealistic to participate in political discussions...bummer. She's informed me that people are hired to bring stuff like this to forums and "stir the koolaid" so to speak. So, I'm out. Cheers!

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You and I can go to jail for concealing evidence. Holder is no different. Congress has the right to ask these questions, Holder does not have the right to refuse. What happened to this being "the most transparent Presidency ever". I see little evidence of it.

Yes, decisions are being made with the intention of covering the guilty parties rears, nothing else.