Potential Ban/Brady Bill part deux?

It's all feel good legislation! That doesn't do much of anything, but a peace the masses. About the only thing I'm in favor of restricting, is the straw hats sales (private citizen sales of guns), we need back grounds checks on those. But the gun industry opposes it, it will slow down sales. I'm also in favor of mental competence. The only thing is, you can be fine one year, buy gun ,then go bunker the next and no mental expert can know that by giving you a test. We have to be carfull here too, it could lend itself to abuse of power by the medical community. Double O

Quotes by Jefferson are revered mainly because he is saying what the person quoting wants to hear. If another founding father believed in high taxes or for guns to be locked up except upon invasion or whatever they wouldn't be quoted nearly as often.


Most of these quotes were posted on the "Founding Fathers Forum" in 1788 :p ok so they didn't really have a forum like we do so they posted in the papers of the day... These are just a few, I can go on for days...



“Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American…[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”

Tenche Coxe


“I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.”

George Mason

To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws.”

John Adams

“[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation…[where] the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”

James Madison


“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms…”

Sam Adams


“The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them.”

Zachariah Johnson





I think this one right here bears repeating !!!!!

Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American

The problem with this issue is that it appears to be a hot button issue for many so there is generally not a lot of open-minded conversation on this subject.

I have yet to hear the honest, law abiding, gun owners screaming for more restrictive legislation by distorting facts.


That's a rather skewed statement that's hard to address. I mentioned nothing about anyone screaming or distorting facts. There's a lot of misdirecting however or talking about subjects that aren't germane.

It is possible to own a gun and not have the same point of view as everyone else who owns a gun. My viewpoint isn't primarily shaped around the fact that I own a gun.

There's plenty of slogans but less substance.

Those wanting change are using arguments with no substance and completely ignoring the fact there are hundreds of laws forbidding the very activities they use to further their agenda of control.

Everyone at least open to change aren't of one mind. Most people realize that laws are currently being broken by criminals as that is very obvious.

It's not the point however in being open to consider if all our laws concerning guns are optimal. I agree that jumping on gun control as a magic bullet for every school shooting is also missing the point.

Gun control isn't (as has been rightly pointed out) the only issue that should be coming out of the recent school shouting however it is a reasonable subject to discuss.

Entirely too much shouting about a shooting. Despicable and tragic as it was, that punk could have accomplished the same thing with a lever action or a single stack pistol.

Sure, it's possible that he could or it may be that he could not. If he truly was a punk and not an expert marksman it's possible that he wouldn't have been able to kill so many without being stopped. We'll never know.

It is reasonable to at least ask, discuss, consider whether smaller magazines, slower methods of firing and certain limitations on use and ownership might be appropriate.

Why? How much time does it take to swap out a magazine? Answer, very little. Have you ever seen anybody that is proficient with a bolt action? No? Here ya go.

It doesn't take long but it does take some time and not every criminal is proficient. There's also very little reason for those things in the first place (by that same logic)

Most other countries mentioned as having lots of guns and low violence (involving guns) generally have many more restrictions than the people mentioning these realizes.

OK, so what. In Iraq, every family is allowed an AK-47, the real deal, the full auto like is illegal to own here without a CLASS III permit, for home protection.

OK, so what :) Are we trying to pattern our way of living after Iraq :)

Quotes by Jefferson are revered mainly because he is saying what the person quoting wants to hear. If another founding father believed in high taxes or for guns to be locked up except upon invasion or whatever they wouldn't be quoted nearly as often.

Probably because the founding fathers had just fought a bloody war against an oppressive government and taxation without representation. A war that relied on the personal arms of soldiers early on. Those men provided their own weapons and ammo.


Exactly. That's hardly the situation we face today.

Most of the restrictions being talked about now and in the past (in my limited knowledge) would affect someone protecting against an intruder into their home nor would it have much to do with how a hunter uses his guns.

What part of the 2nd Amendment applies to hunting?


I didn't say anything about the 2nd Amendment specifically. The 2nd Amendment is hardly a clear document however. Much of the interest in guns however comes from hunters and therefore the mention.

Until the current "craze" is over I'm sure it would be a good idea for at least a few guns to be in a school (principal, some teachers) but I'm guessing a better long-term solution to this and the gun violence in the U.S. in general would be to be able to consider some limitations without it turning into a bigger deal than it is by pushing peoples "hot-buttons".

I agree. The bigger problem is for making people to take responsibility for their actions and be held accountable. Less medication of these kids and maybe some serious butt busting when they step over the line. People HAVE to know where their fences are. In my opinion, raising a child and raising a dog should be similar with respect to the fact that NO means NO. Once that concept is instilled, the rest is fairly easy to bring into line.

Dogs are generally easier to control than people and while popular to say I'm not sure in specific cases it's a good idea to reduce the drugs of kids who may be prone to turn an elementary school into a shooting gallery.

Of course drugs shouldn't be the first choice and I'm quite sure that they aren't in reality.

As for doping these kids? I've no idea how old you are. As I've stated before, I'm 60.

My generation grew up with prayer in schools, teachers with a right and expectation to paddle those of us that stepped out of line, (my ass was busted on a LOT of occasions at school and worse when I got home). I'd never heard of a kid with cancer or autism until I was 20 years old. I probably had ADD. I dealt with it as did my teachers. Autism is close to one in fifty now. Child cancer and diabetes are through the roof in this country. Drugs like PROZAC are known and documented to cause problems ESPECIALLY if the medication is stopped. That is a fact.

The last two shootings of this type involved kids/young men who had been medicated with psychotropic drugs.

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Exactly. That's hardly the situation we face today.

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I'd suggest that you look around. The Fourth Amendment has been pretty much gutted. The Patriot Act along with the NDAA have further eroded our liberties as guaranteed by the constitution. Posse Comitatus is dead thanks to the NDAA. We have a president governing by executive order and house and senate that are letting him. NATO is running our troops.

Our representative democracy is no longer representing the will of the people but rather special interest groups with big money. This country has problems and I think a lot of those problems are spilling out.

Parents have few rights to discipline their children compared to when I was young and teachers have none. It's fashionable to place the blame on a problem person EVERYWHERE but where but where it ultimately should reside.

It is possible to buy a street legal car that can go 250MPH. I know of no place on the planet that has 250MPH speed limit. Montana maybe, but if you crack it up because you couldn't control it, you will pay the piper. I haven't seen any legislation to the effect to limit production of those vehicles. The amount of ammunition that a gun can hold is irrelevant in my mind. As I've stated before (and there are many instances to support this,the school house bombing in Bath, Michigan in 1927 is but one example) a determined individual can and will accomplish his chosen mission with whatever is available.

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Originally Posted by Wullie

As for doping these kids? I've no idea how old you are. As I've stated before, I'm 60.

My generation grew up with prayer in schools, teachers with a right and expectation to paddle those of us that stepped out of line, (my ass was busted on a LOT of occasions at school and worse when I got home). I'd never heard of a kid with cancer or autism until I was 20 years old. I probably had ADD. I dealt with it as did my teachers. Autism is close to one in fifty now. Child cancer and diabetes are through the roof in this country. Drugs like PROZAC are known and documented to cause problems ESPECIALLY if the medication is stopped. That is a fact.

The last two shootings of this type involved kids/young men who had been medicated with psychotropic drugs.



I'd suggest that you look around. The Fourth Amendment has been pretty much gutted. The Patriot Act along with the NDAA have further eroded our liberties as guaranteed by the constitution. Posse Comitatus is dead thanks to the NDAA. We have a president governing by executive order and house and senate that are letting him. NATO is running our troops.

Our representative democracy is no longer representing the will of the people but rather special interest groups with big money. This country has problems and I think a lot of those problems are spilling out.

Parents have few rights to discipline their children compared to when I was young and teachers have none. It's fashionable to place the blame on a problem person EVERYWHERE but where but where it ultimately should reside.

It is possible to buy a street legal car that can go 250MPH. I know of no place on the planet that has 250MPH speed limit. Montana maybe, but if you crack it up because you couldn't control it, you will pay the piper. I haven't seen any legislation to the effect to limit production of those vehicles. The amount of ammunition that a gun can hold is irrelevant in my mind. As I've stated before (and there are many instances to support this,the school house bombing in Bath, Michigan in 1927 is but one example) a determined individual can and will accomplish his chosen mission with whatever is available.

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Wullie,

I come from a more recent generation, I had never prayed in school and am an "atheist" (save that for another debate).

Coming from the generation that will be assuming power in this nation in the next 20 years. I am disgusted at the culture that this nation has bread in regards to responsibility. It is so easy to say its not your fault and pass the buck, its done in politics on T.V. and every where our children look so why not follow that trend.

As for this tragedy one of the things that is the least talked about in this corrupt news media system that we have is the fact of his mental illness. They act as if he had access to these firearms the whole time. No he murdered his mother to take them, I don't think that is the firearms fault. I believe that everyone should try and look at this from another angle and that is that this nation is a pro-gun nation if we accept that for a moment and think of solutions with that being a constant. One solution that comes to mind is getting rid of these "victim zones"(better known as gun free zones), these zones are obviously easy targets as there is not fear for the perp..

Also I know this is firing blind but wouldn't you think if the brady's are so afraid of gun violence they might carry to protect themselves.. Its a proven fact that only laws effect law abiding citizens so why wouldn't they want to protect themselves from criminals. Just saying.

On a closing note. The only thing I think we can do to influence this decision is to write our legislators and inform them that this is a misguided reaction to something terrible and also enlighten them on the difference between an assault weapon and the semi-auto sporting rifle that the AR-15 and citizen available version of the AK-47 is.

yes, it's possible to buy a car that will go 250mph and is legal however neither you or I or 99% of the population could afford to buy one. Even if we bought a used one we couldn't afford the maint and insurance. People can always build a bomb or crash an airplane or find some other inventive way to do mayhem but using these means is way more involved and difficult and there is way more of a chance you will be found out before you can accomplish your aim. Buying a few guns and some body armor and ammo is something anyone with a credit card can do in minutes and in a few days you can just walk into a mall and start firing away.

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Deer hunting after the Anointed one gets finished with our gun rights

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

US Constitutional History 101 continued...

Considering that the relevant bit (2nd amendment) was itself by definition the result of an amendment to the original constitution, one thing I've never understood is the absolute and complete opposition to any mention of even considering amending (even by way of clarification) that particular amendment. Have other constitutional amendments themselves been amended? I don't know if that is even possible (again, I plead ignorance on these issues), but if other amendments have themselves been amended or superseded, what exactly is it that makes the second amendment so sacred? Is it simply the association made between the right to bear arms and freedom as illustrated by Mr. Jefferson?

Thanks Professor Wullie! :)

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As to the admendments to the US Constitution. It is not like the Constitution was written and YEARS later it was admended. The Original was sent out for ratification Sept 17th, 1787 by the Constitutional Convention. On Sept 25, 1789 the congress sent out 12 proposed admendments, two of which were not adopted and the other 10 became the Bill of Rights. So it was more or less an extension of the original Constitution. After the Bill of Rights it was not till 6 years later tha Adm. 11 came about

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Originally Posted by redrover66

As to the admendments to the US Constitution. It is not like the Constitution was written and YEARS later it was admended. The Original was sent out for ratification Sept 17th, 1787 by the Constitutional Convention. On Sept 25, 1789 the congress sent out 12 proposed admendments, two of which were not adopted and the other 10 became the Bill of Rights. So it was more or less an extension of the original Constitution. After the Bill of Rights it was not till 6 years later tha Adm. 11 came about

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According to Wikipedia (which, obviously is NEVER wrong - and yes I am ashamed to admit the depths of my ignorance on this question do sink that low) the most recent amendment came about in 1992, so presumably the constitution is a living document that is open to amendment. Does chronological proximity to the original constitution lend additional weight to the early amendments?

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

yes, it's possible to buy a car that will go 250mph and is legal however neither you or I or 99% of the population could afford to buy one. Even if we bought a used one we couldn't afford the maint and insurance. People can always build a bomb or crash an airplane or find some other inventive way to do mayhem but using these means is way more involved and difficult and there is way more of a chance you will be found out before you can accomplish your aim. Buying a few guns and some body armor and ammo is something anyone with a credit card can do in minutes and in a few days you can just walk into a mall and start firing away.

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I figured somebody would bring up price when I typed that. By the way, have you seen what high capacity magazine prices have done in the last 72 hours?

I think Endofab is right on the mark about "victim Zones".

Take a peek at this page;
Top 10 Myths About Mass Shootings - The Conversation - The Chronicle of Higher Education

And at THE PLAN from the POTUS.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/multi...830&height=800

I wonder why mental health is at the bottom of the list.