8K my worst stone, or I'm my worst honer?

I started out with a 4k,8k,10k on new razors (One pro honed the other by me, followed by one more) I invested in a king 1/k 6/k combo stone so I had a bevel setter. After trying repeatedly to get the Dovo 6/8 correct and shaveable, then this Klaas 11/16 over the last 3 days, I get a good bevel off the 1k. ( I sort of feel I should be going straight to the 10k to finish it, but the rules say otherwise).

The samurai delux 4k naniwa, seems a harsh stone and you need heaps of slurry to get it smooth, so I tried the 6k King (Needed soaking for 15 mins). Bearing in mind I started with the 1k bevel setter and achieved a bevel, I've jumped over the naniwa 4k, and gave it a few strokes on the 6k side of this waterstone. I have to say, that against convention, this 6K felt great, in 10 minutes I had it cutting tree tops. Now here is the conundrum. I take it to the naniwa 8K to polish. (This is a clean lapped stone, and after seven or eight feather strokes, I checked it and It was no where near as good as it was after the King 6K. I went back to the king and got it to pass the HHT, then with a fair bit of slurry got it through the 8k stone. I put it straight on the 10k, no slurry, no pressure, and it was nice. 8 passes on a crox balsa strop and we are shave ready. I am comfortable from the 1k/6/k combo stone to the 8K 10k, the 4k is either my poor techniques or the imaginary shaves I've had.

Are these all brand new stones ? Have they been lapped properly ? If so I would go through the whole progression and then do the test shave. Funny thing I do when I test between stones is forget to strop :<0)

It took me a while before I started getting shave-worthy edges. Hang in there. Maybe someone close can give you an afternoon lesson? I taught myself for about the first year and a half then spent a few days within 6 months with a few local pros and my edges took off! I could get an ok shave with the 8k at first, definitely tugged a bit. After 6 months to a year I was getting better shaves and upgraded to a 12k stone. Shaves improved yet again but nothing like what the pros were producing. After a few lessons with the masters I can almost get edges like theirs. They aren't quite on the same level, but definitely in the same league. I also found having access to a microscope has helped me a great amount as well. But they are expensive for a nice one unless you get lucky and find one for cheap.

Simply having great stones doesn't guarantee great edges either. I was trying to figure out the Escher for a few months before I started getting it to perform. It is a learning process for sure. Just take you time, people will help. The biggest tips I've ever had were using ZERO pressure and honing with one hand. Yes, occasionally I use two hands, but ever since switching to one hand, my edges have been better.

Having diamond spray or CrOx might serve useful while your learning too. It did for me, although some people advise to stay away from then in the beginning. It helped me because my edges weren't up to par and the spray/paste helped stretch my edges just a tad more and smooth everything out. Now I don't ever use paste/spray, I enjoy seeing how good of shaves I can get using strictly hones. I wish you luck and hope everything starts coming together soon!

Thanks mate, I really think I use too much pressure, because, sometimes I get a great result..My worry is I can 't replicate it. But I dead set reckon that 1/k 6/k combo is a good stone. I find the naniwa SS 4k to be hard 4 me to get it to the 8k. I end up going back to the 6k just to get it to a set bevel christ, I've got a lot to learn... No doubt the .50 crox is a top product. Look at your bevel under magnificatrion you will never doubt it's reality as a scratch remover. Subjective as if it's a real....I RECKON IT IS.

No doubt as to Crox or other pastes, etc, They do work. Opinion is a good thing. I saw the the bloke that touted the 'nano-cloth. Science has a positive view on his ideas. Think of it as 'cut and polish' in a panel shop. It's not some mystic crazy idea..
Fact I bought a 3 x 3 balsa piece. I bought 98% pure Chromium Oxide from a potter. The dopes who bought crayon crox at a fortune at 15% more power to you. My balsa strop aint 15% crayon...for christs sake. Mine is 98% and you use a 1/4 teaspoon for the whole strop.....Go to the pottery shop. 8 bucks will make you 1000 stops....

Which 8 and 10k stones do you have. If the super stones either should be able to take a razor to shave ready without paste. Good luck. Ed

Mate, after going from 1k, where there is a pen knife sharp feel, say a little better, it cuts arm hair. I then put it on the naniwa deluxe 4k, after that, it's less sharp feel. So I go the 1k's brother the 6K, i find it a lovely smooth fast cutting whetsone. (It needs soaking) Once I've done 10 to 15 strokes round it feels nice on the thumb pad test. Well stuff me if when I put 8-10 strokes on the naniwa SS8k it dulls. I don't know why. What I ended up doing was going back to the King 1k/6k and giving it a dozen or so strokes with slurry on the 6k. After that, I just gave it half a dozen super light on the 10 K naniwaSS. I's OK, but not what I'd hoped to replicate from my Pro honed razor. I could be over expecting, but I'm shaving in the morning. I'll let you know. I'm trying my hardest, and truly getting the shits over this. Crazy as it seems the 8k seems to send me backwards, the 4k not better. I am getting the best results from 1k to 6k to 10 k. I have a 4k and a 8k that I don't get results from. I maybe barking up the wrong tree, but common sense tells me those two stones should be good in a progression. Bob

Speaking as a rank amateur, perhaps the 4 and 8 are unnecessary to your progression, and if that's the case, whack them in the classifieds. At least with naniwas you should get most if your investment back.

I just had a shave with the 1/2 hollow ground, which was honed before sale even though brand new, the seller does hone it to a degree. It was a reasonably good shave, but I know there is another level I need to find. I'm stubborn, so I will learn to get these two stones (4K & 8K) working for me. It is my technique and my lack of experience that is causing these problems. Initially I only had a 4k & 8k and managed to get brand new Dovo's in good shape, I just find it harder now to replicate. So I'll soldier on with all my stones. They should work fine, they can work fine, so that leaves the only variable (Me). Anyway, back to the stones. Thanks mate.

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Originally Posted by bobski

Mate, after going from 1k, where there is a pen knife sharp feel, say a little better, it cuts arm hair. I then put it on the naniwa deluxe 4k, after that, it's less sharp feel. So I go the 1k's brother the 6K, i find it a lovely smooth fast cutting whetsone. (It needs soaking) Once I've done 10 to 15 strokes round it feels nice on the thumb pad test. Well stuff me if when I put 8-10 strokes on the naniwa SS8k it dulls. I don't know why. What I ended up doing was going back to the King 1k/6k and giving it a dozen or so strokes with slurry on the 6k. After that, I just gave it half a dozen super light on the 10 K naniwaSS. I's OK, but not what I'd hoped to replicate from my Pro honed razor. I could be over expecting, but I'm shaving in the morning. I'll let you know. I'm trying my hardest, and truly getting the shits over this. Crazy as it seems the 8k seems to send me backwards, the 4k not better. I am getting the best results from 1k to 6k to 10 k. I have a 4k and a 8k that I don't get results from. I maybe barking up the wrong tree, but common sense tells me those two stones should be good in a progression. Bob

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So what you're saying is the razor shaves better off the 6k than the 8k ? All other tests or perceptions are irrelevant.

Re the CrO. We had a member some years back that pasted a strop with 5 micron CrO rather than 0.5 micron. It worked well enough simply because the powder embeds into the medium so the actual size is not such an influence. That doesn't mean it IS as fine as 0.5 powder & you are likely to get random larger scratches in the finish seen under magnification. Will it degrade the shave ? Not likely but don't think it is the same powder.

I have re-assessed my situation. There is nothing wrong with either naniwa 4k or 8k or 10k. I set the bevel successfully with the 1K. (I used to set the bevel on the 4k prior to buying 1-6 combo.) So as of today, I will follow logic. If after bevel setting I dull it on the 4k, I need to examine what I've done wrong., the natural progression to the clay based water stone 6K is nice and I declare straight up it's a smooth stone and gives a shavable edge. So to the 8k, I will use as little pressure as one can, then same on the 10 k. What has been happening is after the 6 ot 7 on ther 8k my edge vanishes. I do believe I have tried to think of it as needing to create an edge, not simply polish one, so my pressure is way to hard. I am not due to shave with 'this' razor for 3 days, so if I have success. with the softly softly approach, all good. If the best I can do is a 6k edge, then would it be wise to lead with the spine on the 8, 10k? (I've watched murray carter, that's how stuffed up I am)? Cheers Bob

The best wisdom is to use just the weight of the blade. A heavy hand on 8k & the edge will vanish.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

The best wisdom is to use just the weight of the blade. A heavy hand on 8k & the edge will vanish.

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+1 I also struggled with that for a long time. My current usual progression is Naniwa SS in 1K, 5K, 10K, 12K and then crox on balsa for 7 strokes followed by leather. Works 95% of the time. Once in a while when I have a razor that resists that approach, I will try my Kings in 2K and 6k, or my Norton 4K and 8K, and follow with my yellow coticule. There is always a way, but patience is key. I often walk away for a day or two when stuck.
Also looking forward to the Brissy meet where there will be many to compare hones and edges with.
you know how it goes..."when the student is ready the teacher will appear". We are fortunate to have this community with so many teachers for us willing to share.
Adam.

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Originally Posted by Adam G.

+1
Also looking forward to the Brissy meet where there will be many to compare hones and edges with.
you know how it goes..."when the student is ready the teacher will appear". We are fortunate to have this community with so many teachers for us willing to share.
Adam.

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Well said Adam: here's what I'm bringing in the way of rocks: Norton 4k/8k, King 1k/6k, a Guangxi stone (the phig), a Welsh yellow lake, a Coticule, a Shapton Pro 12k, a Black Arkansas and an old old barber hone. Can't say I'm a master of anything like all of them but I have developed some confidence with the King and the Norton. I'm hoping I'll get some good advice on other stones.

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Originally Posted by bobski

So to the 8k, I will use as little pressure as one can, then same on the 10 k. What has been happening is after the 6 ot 7 on ther 8k my edge vanishes. I do believe I have tried to think of it as needing to create an edge, not simply polish one, so my pressure is way to hard.

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I would suggest that after the 4k loose all pressure and just the weight of the blade. After the 4k you are really only polishing/refining it

I'm reading all this and thinking something is missing. Sounds like your seeing the razor is clipping hairs after coming off the 1K, then its not clipping hairs after being honed on an 8k stone or higher? You said it cuts the hairs "at tree top level"after the 1k. You have to remember that when you finish your honing on a 1k stone the razor edge is ragged so its snagging the hairs and will cut them with ease. I don't always see my razors cut hairs just grazing at arm hair tip length after coming off a finishing hone like an 8k or higher. One or two will pop off if they happen to be laying the right way. So what I am seeing is that I need to do after a finishing stone is an HHT or arm hair test a skin level to get an idea if the blade is getting close to shave ready.

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

Funny thing I do when I test between stones is forget to strop :<0)

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I'll bite, 10Pups. I don't get it or am I missing a funny.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

The best wisdom is to use just the weight of the blade. A heavy hand on 8k & the edge will vanish.

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Originally Posted by eddy79

I would suggest that after the 4k loose all pressure and just the weight of the blade. After the 4k you are really only polishing/refining it

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As a novice honer myself, I offended the edge in the exact same manner on a blade or two. I'm also learning that different steel seems to hone up differently. I've had to spend 3x the amount of time on, say, the 3K or 8K level, depending on the blade. On others, I seems to be able to go 1K,3K,8K,12K within an hour and have excellent results.

I've found also that using magnification has really been helping. Picked up a cheapie 30x jewelers loupe off amazon for under $5usd.

Good post. I've found fellow SRPers supremely helpful when I run into the unknown(which is just about everything in this sport). I have full confidence my honing would take light year leaps if I attended a get together and got a little one on one with a resident meister.

Kind Regards,
Siguy

I'm using a king icebear 1/6K combo, and it's a great stone.

I'm not sure why the 8K nani isn't improving the edge tho. If it was an 8K norton then it would be a step backwards from the 6K king, so I would understand that. The Nani should be using the same grit standard and with that it should be an improvement.

One thing it might be is slurry. The king's slurry is very smooth and doesn't detract from the finished edge much. The stone cuts faster with a slurry, but is slow to auto slurry so it automatically gets thinner as you work.

I think your probably trying to use the nani with a heavy slurry that is been replenished as you hone, Keeping it pretty thick. Try using the nani without slurry and see if it will improve the 6K.

I've used the nani 8k and it's a very fine smooth stone which leaves a brilliant polish.

It sounds like you may be over thinking this a bit. If you just need to touch your razors up then the 8k should work fine. You shouldn't need to keep going back to 1k.

Using 5 different stones and tons of slurry will only make it more confusing.

Michael

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Originally Posted by Iceni

I'm not sure why the 8K nani isn't improving the edge tho. If it was an 8K norton then it would be a step backwards from the 6K king, so I would understand that. The Nani should be using the same grit standard and with that it should be an improvement.

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Has Norton stopped using the JIS rating ?

I thought for a minute I missed the news flash too onimaru55 :<0)
Just reading this thread has me confused as to what's going on and who did what.

@ Siguy I was just saying that if I lose my cool and hurry a razor across the stones I forget things. Like stropping before I test it. Frustration leads to confusion in a heartbeat. You start skipping steps and your technique suffers enough to make things worse not better. In my circle of friends that wrench on things we have a saying. " Never let anything mechanical know your in a hurry or mad." I think this holds true when honing, maybe times 2.

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

I've used the nani 8k and it's a very fine smooth stone which leaves a brilliant polish.

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And as I found out, soft. That's not a knock, just an observation.

@10Pups,
And whatever you do, don't go to the light!