1911 - Disappointed

Preface:

As a long-time Glock user and quasi-gun enthusiast, I was longing to get a 1911 and finally did. On a budget, I bought the Taurus PT1911 stainless steel. I really enjoyed it. It ran flawlessly.

I couldn't help but think the Taurus wasn't a quality "battle" gun therefore I eventually splurged and bought a Para Black Ops (double stack) 1911 thinking this would be/operate better than the Taurus.

Boy was I wrong. Every 4 or 5 rounds it would fail to feed or eject. After finally getting in touch with their support, I was told of a $250 - 500 round break in period is. "normal" for 1911's! What?

Like I said earlier, I'm only used to platforms that simply run and run and gobble up any ammo I get my hands on. And my PT1911 from Taurus seemed to be no exception.

What's your experience with the 1911? I'm sure it's a stiff ejector, but for $1000, shouldn't it.... I don't know... work right out of the box?

Thanks,
~mike

I have a s&w 1911 with about 2.5k rounds thru it, only 2 FTE and that was with an aftermarket extended clip. My buddy has a kimber which seemed to be a bit finicky about which rounds it liked out of the box however after a few range trips it's smooth as butter. I understand exactly how I feel though I went thru a similar rage with my scar17 out of the box and dealing with issues i thought shouldn't be there

My dad has a Springfield that was FTF & FTE for a while. Turns out the feed ramp had to be reshaped just a bit. After that, loves all ammo. His Kimber took about ten mags to get going good. I love both of those things! I like my .45 cal ar15 better!:rock:

There is no excuse they should be smooth as butter, I have an old colt with over 50k thru it with minor repairs and mods, and I have a 500$ Springfield XP that has not had a misstep once in 4 k of rounds , now as stated maybe your black ops doesn't like the rounds , but I'd still be looking for them to clea n up my ejector system. Just my two cents. Tc

I currently own several 1911s. And I've owned a bunch more. Here is one. They all run flawlessly no matter what ammo I put in them.
I've owned a (firstgeneration) Glock 20. I carried it for a year, (no. not in Norway) and I've never had
as much trouble with feeding with any of my 1911 as I had with that one.

BTW the 1911forum - Yes, I'm a member there too, has it's own Para - sub-forum. There might be the right place to ask for advice.

I used to carry 1911s exclusively, including two of the original Kimbers. Once I got a Glock 19, the simplicity of it, accuracy and ease of use won me over. I gave the 1911s to my son to use. I do have a Colt Mustang .380 Lite which mimics the style of the 1911, but it is just as easy to work with as the Glock is.

I'm a 1911 junkie as well.

First off, the Taurus 1911 is actually a pretty dang good 1911...especially for the $. They have a bad rap I know, but the new stuff they are putting out is quality & they stand behind their warranty without question. I've had a PT1911 from when they introduced them and it outshoots several of my pistols that are double it's price. All I have done to mine is change the cheap grips on it and shoot the crap out of it. My experience with Para-Ordinance was about like yours. There was nothing smooth about it and after putting 1K rounds through it and it still not sure if it would make it through a mag or not...I traded it off like I would a auto that wouldn't keep running. Their customer service is lacking and honestly many look at he para almost like most do the taurus. I hate it you spent that much on it, but I found out the hard way too on this company. Now the good news is you can most likely get it going just fine with a few more bucks into it. Here is what I would do before I bothered with trying more "break in rounds". Call up wilson combat. Tell them what you have & order a new extracter, 2-piece guide rod, and spring. Spring weight depends on the ammo you will shoot, they will guide you through the process. These guys make good parts at a fair price & are just good folks to deal with. These parts are simple replacement parts. If that doesn't fix it, take all those good parts you put into it, get rid of it & buy a used springfield range officer or kimber.

Something else you should do is have someone who you respect as a shooter to watch you shoot. Why? To be sure you aren't limp-wristing. I've done some trouble shooting on pistols for friends before (1911's) and couldn't find out what was going on, only to go to the range and find out how they shot. Most of the time folks don't even know they are doing it & a little instruction goes a LONG ways. BTW, most of the time I have witnessed limp-wristing is from big & strong guys...

I'm down to just a handful of 1911's now & I'm OK with that...after just one more.

Lastly, if you aren't comfortable swapping out the parts, you can send the parts to me along with the upper slide and I will do it for you, just cover shipping.

This 250 round break in period is a more common policy nowadays. I heard the same from Kahr Arms and from Sig. Matter of fact IIRC even Glock has something like that in the brochure they furnish with a new pistol. It is frustrating to get all stoked and go to the range with a new pistol only to have it become a PITA. Were you shooting hard ball ? Hard ball usually runs through a 1911 type flawlessly IME. Another thing is cleaning any assembly grease and lubing it with a good gun oil/grease like militec or some such before you first take it out. We might not have had to do that years ago but times are changed.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

I'm a 1911 junkie as well.
Something else you should do is have someone who you respect as a shooter to watch you shoot. Why? To be sure you aren't limp-wristing. I've done some trouble shooting on pistols for friends before (1911's) and couldn't find out what was going on, only to go to the range and find out how they shot. Most of the time folks don't even know they are doing it & a little instruction goes a LONG ways. BTW, most of the time I have witnessed limp-wristing is from big & strong guys...

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Yea, it is the little things that bite you in the behind and that is one of them.

Bob

Ah, A question I know more about than SR shaving!

First off, you've bought a nice (and expensive) pistol and it should work well (once cleaned to get rid of any manufacturing/shipping "gunk") right out of the box. However, if it's double stack as you said, it's not a Para 1911, which is single stack, as are all 1911s, it's a Para Black Ops 14.45 or a 10.45 or one of the yet to be released (I think) Combat or Recon models. The fact that they are double stack pistols means, pretty much by definition that they are not built on the proven (since the early 1900's) design of the 1911, but are adaptations/redesigns.

That is a critical issue in answering your question, since the 1911 design has proven to be reliable under even the most extreme conditions. The one thing that will effect them is not having a solid enough grip to allow the slide to cycle completely. This is commonly referred to as "limp-wristing", as compared to the correct shooting technique of "pressing forward into the grip" while the pistol cycles.

If I were you I'd 1) clean the pistol well, 2) get a box of quality ammo and 3) do a test firing of 50 rounds while being sure you have a tight grip and good shooting position during all 50 rounds. If you still have a problem, it is probably the pistol....OR....the double stack grip is just too big for your hand to maintain control.

Good luck, for what you've paid for a Para-Ordnance pistol, it should function. If not get them to replace it or buy a Kimber or Springfield Armory (I have both and they are great) or one of the other high end, well proven 1911s. If you want a 45 in double stack, look at the new Sig P227.

I have been hearing good things about the STI 1911's from the Tactical guys. Have any of you tried one of them?

I think Harold may have a good point about giving it a real thorough cleaning. If the tolerances are tighter than mil spec issue in order to accurize them then they can get very finicky and are really sensitive to dirt and gunk build up.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Haroldg48

Ah, I question I know more about than SR shaving!

First off, you've bought a nice (and expensive) pistol and it should work well (once cleaned to get rid of any manufacturing/shipping "gunk") right out of the box. However, if it's double stack as you said, it's not a Para 1911, which is single stack, as are all 1911s, it's a Para Black Ops 14.45 or a 10.45 or one of the yet to be released (I think) Combat or Recon models. The fact that they are double stack pistols means, pretty much by definition that they are not built on the proven (since the early 1900's) design of the 1911, but are adaptations/redesigns.

That is a critical issue in answering your question, since the 1911 design has proven to be reliable under even the most extreme conditions. The one thing that will effect them is not having a solid enough grip to allow the slide to cycle completely. This is commonly referred to as "limp-wristing", as compared to the correct shooting technique of "pressing forward into the grip" while the pistol cycles.

If I were you I'd 1) clean the pistol well, 2) get a box of quality ammo and 3) do a test firing of 50 rounds while being sure you have a tight grip and good shooting position during all 50 rounds. If you still have a problem, it is probably the pistol....OR....the double stack grip is just too big for your hand to maintain control.

Good luck, for what you've paid for a Para-Ordnance pistol, it should function. If not get them to replace it or buy a Kimber or Springfield Armory (I have both and they are great) or one of the other high end, well proven 1911s. If you want a 45 in double stack, look at the new Sig P227.

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I agree 100% my first thought when reading the OP was that 1911's aren't double stacked. And I've been positively drooling over the P227 for almost a year now!!! Just tough to drop that kinda $$$ right now. Esp if it's going to be a carry gun, tough to see it get beat up through daily carry. I will get one one day though...

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I have been hearing good things about the STI 1911's from the Tactical guys. Have any of you tried one of them?

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The only STI I have shot was one that was really worked over, so it shot like a $2K+ pistol...like butter. Same guy had a Les Baer Monolith and I liked the STI better. I've heard good about the box stock STI's too.

The tightest tolerance 1911 I have shot was the same mentioned Les Baer, it was still shooting great with at least 200 rounds of WInchester white box ammo. It was dirty as all get out, still ran like a swiss watch, and still made me look like I was a shooter when you looked at my groups.

My Kimber was a pretty good piece. And I do love 1911's. But i've re-lapsed (down-sized) into revolvers only now...and SA at that.

Also, i see all factory-produced guns (and automobiles) as "pre-assembled kits". I take them apart and tune them up/modify them to suit my preferences because ...well because that's what i've learned to do to suit my "needs".

If i had money to spend, i'd hire the work out. But i always blow all my money on the kit. Then fix it.

I was probably 16 when i started smoothing sears and polishing/deburring what comes out of factories.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I have been hearing good things about the STI 1911's from the Tactical guys. Have any of you tried one of them?

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I borrowed one for a while, from a friend that only have STIs, and I have nothing but good experiences with them.
Runs well. Shoots well. Like a 1911 is supposed to do. I recommend them.

Funny little axiom of pistols (and many other weapons) that has been well covered in this thread but not stated

As accuracy gets better, tolerances must get tighter, as tolerances get tighter, reliability decreases...


The break in periods, tuning, cleaning, tweaking, all carefully and selectively open up certain tolerances of the system... :)

I haven't had a chance to shoot an STI, but have friends that have one of their full-size 1911s. They love it.

Personally, I'm at a stage at which given my current inventory which includes a Kimber (full size) 1911 and many other items in other calibers, I'm not inclined to buy any handgun that costs over $1000. I have a safe full of S&W, Ruger, Taurus, Beretta, and Kimber, and plan no additions (although they're easier to sneak past SWMBO than razors and other shaving supplies which come via the post office, UPS or Fedex) :w

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I have been hearing good things about the STI 1911's from the Tactical guys. Have any of you tried one of them?

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STI makes quality products in my experience. I think the STI "Defender" is a single stack model? There are a lot of 1911/SS .45s out there, and as you know prices from "don't bother wasting your money" to "if you have to ask you can't afford it." For tactical use, reliability is obviously #1. Don't need 1" groups at 25 yds in a defensive weapon, but it dang sure better fire on every trigger pull! As mentioned in other posts, higher accuracy = tighter tolerances = lowered reliability.

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Originally Posted by Haroldg48

Ah, A question I know more about than SR shaving!

First off, you've bought a nice (and expensive) pistol and it should work well (once cleaned to get rid of any manufacturing/shipping "gunk") right out of the box. However, if it's double stack as you said, it's not a Para 1911...
If I were you I'd 1) clean the pistol well, 2) get a box of quality ammo and 3) do a test firing of 50 rounds while being sure you have a tight grip and good shooting position during all 50 rounds. If you still have a problem, it is probably the pistol....OR....the double stack grip is just too big for your hand to maintain control...If you want a 45 in double stack, look at the new Sig P227.

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+1 on all counts. I don't recall if OP mentioned what malfunctions are being experienced: FTF/stovepipes (could be bullet shape issue); FTE (limp-wristing, or various pistol issues); or something else.

OP - Let us know what you find out. Providing specifics after you run the tests may offer more insights.

Also, 250 rounds isn't even full familiarization with a new pistol in most folk's opinion, if your intent is carry or competition.

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Originally Posted by BobH

I think Harold may have a good point about giving it a real thorough cleaning. If the tolerances are tighter than mil spec issue in order to accurize them then they can get very finicky and are really sensitive to dirt and gunk build up.

Bob

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Funny little axiom of pistols (and many other weapons) that has been well covered in this thread but not stated

As accuracy gets better, tolerances must get tighter, as tolerances get tighter, reliability decreases...


The break in periods, tuning, cleaning, tweaking, all carefully and selectively open up certain tolerances of the system... :)

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This is interesting to me. I always wanted to get a Para but didn't because; I always knew/or was told they had larger than normal break-in periods because of the above mentioned "tight tolerances." Which of course, in theory leads to a more " accurate " pistol in the long-run.

Another thing to consider is ammo. It just might be that a tight pistol needs ammo that is up to snuff in the power department to work reliably too. Some actions like the Luger toggle action will not tolerate weak loads to cycle reliably.

Bob

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Originally Posted by DamnStraight

Preface:

As a long-time Glock user and quasi-gun enthusiast, I was longing to get a 1911 and finally did. On a budget, I bought the Taurus PT1911 stainless steel. I really enjoyed it. It ran flawlessly.

I couldn't help but think the Taurus wasn't a quality "battle" gun therefore I eventually splurged and bought a Para Black Ops (double stack) 1911 thinking this would be/operate better than the Taurus.

Boy was I wrong. Every 4 or 5 rounds it would fail to feed or eject. After finally getting in touch with their support, I was told of a $250 - 500 round break in period is. "normal" for 1911's! What?

Like I said earlier, I'm only used to platforms that simply run and run and gobble up any ammo I get my hands on. And my PT1911 from Taurus seemed to be no exception.

What's your experience with the 1911? I'm sure it's a stiff ejector, but for $1000, shouldn't it.... I don't know... work right out of the box?

Thanks,
~mike

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I've always heard of the "break in period" but my Kimber ultra raptor II 3" barrel 1911 never had the issue of hanging spent shells unless it was running dry and needing oil. Pretty sure Kimber has similar tolerances. I'd say make sure its clean as a whistle, oil the points of friction well, and as stated before, limp wristing might be a thought as well as the ammo choice.

My buddies kimber is a fail monster... With FTF and fte... He handed it to me as I've built two 1911's from scratch... I used an Arkansas finger stone to polish the rails and then a dremel to polish and reshape the feed ramp... Not one failure to feed or eject since..


Disassemble the gun and see how the slide and frame fit.. If it doesn't feel like glass put some polishing compound or CrOx on the rails and cycle the gun 500-1000 times refreshing as you go... Next run you finger on a non oiled feed ramp... If you feel any bumps or burrs something is not right there... Go get it worked on by a professional... Also fte can be a ejection hook tension problem... Go get it looked at

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Originally Posted by DamnStraight

Preface:

As a long-time Glock user and quasi-gun enthusiast, I was longing to get a 1911 and finally did. On a budget, I bought the Taurus PT1911 stainless steel. I really enjoyed it. It ran flawlessly.

I couldn't help but think the Taurus wasn't a quality "battle" gun therefore I eventually splurged and bought a Para Black Ops (double stack) 1911 thinking this would be/operate better than the Taurus.

Boy was I wrong. Every 4 or 5 rounds it would fail to feed or eject. After finally getting in touch with their support, I was told of a $250 - 500 round break in period is. "normal" for 1911's! What?

Like I said earlier, I'm only used to platforms that simply run and run and gobble up any ammo I get my hands on. And my PT1911 from Taurus seemed to be no exception.

What's your experience with the 1911? I'm sure it's a stiff ejector, but for $1000, shouldn't it.... I don't know... work right out of the box?


Thanks,
~mike

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Not to criticize, just curious questions, as I am, by no means, a weapons expert.
Why did you feel that the Taurus was not a quality "battle" gun? I assume you mean a carry piece for self defense?

If this is the case, then your Taurus fit 2 very important categories, you enjoyed it(meaning you felt comfortable shooting it & experienced with it's functioning),, it ran flawlessly (confidence in it's performance).

Another similarity with women, sometimes we think we are trading up; then we find out the beauty queen can't cook or clean house. :shrug:

If your 1911 was meant to be a range/contest gun, then you can cut her a little slack, as your life is not on the line. Then experiment with modifications & types of ammo, have fun with her, if this is the case.

The 1911's in my life have always been Colts & hardball was the only ammo in the mag. I have never needed a "break in peroid"; again,,I keep them clean after each use & only run hardball. My 1911's are for self defense, I take them to the range on occasion.

I say keep your Para for target & competition & the Taurus for self defense. Money can't buy reliability in guns.
Just my thoughts.

I was a steadfast Colt 1911 guy for 20 years. Got my first one as a high school graduation gift from my Dad. Carried one over 15 years in the military, owned several for my own use, and came to really know the 1911 well and become very comfortable with it. On a whim I picked up a Glock in a trade. Against my strongest protestations and resistance, I was in short time forced to acknowledge the simplicity and reliability of the Glock. Today, if I had to choose one sidearm as a general purpose secondary weapon, it would be without a doubt a Glock (21 :) ). They have completely won me over.

No issues with my 1911s (SA, Colt, Sig)...love 'em. They will eat up any ammo thrown through them. In line to pick up another one soon (thinking of a Colt Commander or a semi-custom).

I'm not familiar with Paras. Is the OPs model a full size 5"/Gov?
Wildly general comment and only based on my limited personal observations but it seems, the shorter barrels tend to 'show' a slight bit less reliability (which should still be a very high level). If build quality is all the same, perhaps the shorter barrels demand greater attention to detail in form (?) or perhaps the perfect recipe for the 1911 includes the 5" barrel...

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Originally Posted by BobH

Yea, it is the little things that bite you in the behind and that is one of them.

Bob

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I agree! I'm a police officer and an NRA Instructor. I shoot fairly well. I'm never the most impressive shot (as always feel I can improve).

I took the pistol out again today and discovered it was most likely the ammo!!!

Thanks for all of your input, advise as well as offers to help me. I still think I'll upgrade some of the peices and parts as well as work the ramp, etc., to make
this a better, more reliable platform.

Here is a picture of my shooting this gun at 5 yards.

I'm going to check the cheap ammo out with a case gave and calipers and see what the difference is between that and Winchester ammo that fed w/o issue.

As I've mentioned, I'm a Glock guy (to a fault). Bigger grips work better for me that's what led to the double stack platform. And yes, I stand corrected.

The reason I didn't think the Taurus PT1911 isn't "Battle ready is more my lack of information and familiarization with anything other than Glock, SigSauer, S&W M&P's, XD's.

At that, and in hopes I don't open a can of worms, I like the 9mm +P ammo. Again, this is as personal to each shooter as aftershave for preference in SRs. :-)

I hope to keep growing I my exposure, experience in all areas of firearms. As cost go up, seems like my exposure goes down! Unfortunate...
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I'd almost bet that is why the pistol has such a long break in period, it is tight and needs to lap itself in. At the end of the recommended break in period I would not be surprised if the pistol was less finicky about what ammo you feed it. In any event it is good you got her solved.

Bob

Funny story that we will have to talk more about at the Mile High Meet...

Back in the early 80's when DPD was still carrying revolvers, I remember a few friends complaining that they were not allowed to carry the Colt Python because of the tight tolerances.. They were so tight that they could actually lock the cylinder, if not cared for meticulously, at least this was the story from the "Powers that be"

Ah ya had to mention the Colt Python, loved that revolver. Never had a problem with it seizing up due to tight tolerances though. It was the nicest factory stock revolver I have ever used.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

I'd almost bet that is why the pistol has such a long break in period, it is tight and needs to lap itself in. At the end of the recommended break in period I would not be surprised if the pistol was less finicky about what ammo you feed it. In any event it is good you got her solved.

Bob

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Me too! I think my next adventure (if I dare) is to learn and love the 1911 and the .45ACP. It does feel great on my hip. I have a nice leather Gould & Goodrich paddle holster. It feels real sweet. And I think this 9mm guy is liking the idea of slinging huge, ugly chunks of 230gr HPs!

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Originally Posted by BobH

Ah ya had to mention the Colt Python, loved that revolver. Never had a problem with it seizing up due to tight tolerances though. It was the nicest factory stock revolver I have ever used.

Bob

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Two things that Python owners who shot them a lot learned: leading at the cylinder face and the forcing cone would cause a noticeable drag on the cylinder rotating and running hot loads were just enough to back the the screw thread on the ejector rod out. Nobody was really using Loctite back then. Occasionally, the ejector rod would back out far enough that it would get trapped in the milled slot and you could not open the cylinder. Those of us fortunate to own a Python always brushed the cylinder face and forcing cone after a box or two of ball and got the habit of tightening the ejector rods from time to time.

Shot mine a fair amount over ten or so years but the amount that some would that is for sure. After shooting I would always give it a thorough cleaning. The thorough cleaning ritual I guess is pretty important for most guns as opposed to just a lick and a polish. AKs were made for those types of users.;)

Bob

I have a Taurus pt1911 and love it. I shot a Kimber side by side with my Taurus and both shot equally well. I could get 4 of the Taurus for the price of that Kimber. Along with that one I have several other Taurus pistols and am happy with all of them. people either love or hate them.

I believe the op stated the problem himself in the following quote "double stack". I don't mean to be derogatory, I just think that that weapon should be viewed in a different light than a true 1911. You can still have a blast at the range with it, just dont expect it to perform like something it is not or it can't possibly live up to expectations. Apples and oranges is all. Just snicker at the next guy at the range who is reloading twice to your once and you will find the enjoyment in your purchase that you have been looking for.

I dunno, I don't see how a magazine that is properly designed and built to hold rounds staggered shooting rimless ammo should be a problem. OTH my only experience with that type of mag in a pistol was shooting service issue Canadian made Browning Hi Powers with service issue ball. Have to say I don't recall a lot of trouble with them due to the mag layout. Atrocious triggers as issued though.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

I dunno, I don't see how a magazine that is properly designed and built to hold rounds staggered shooting rimless ammo should be a problem.

Bob

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I have to agree. Nonetheless, my thinking process that any Para would be better than any Taurus is in and of itself flawed.

To move FROM a proven platform (the 1911) to an in proven double stack iteration of the same seem to be a bit if a miss.

I dunno? Please don't tell me I have to buy ANOTHER gun! That'd break my heart.

Okay, which 1911 should I buy under $1500? There's the new topic!

All you 1911 enthusiasts.... SHOOT!
:-)

~mc

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Originally Posted by DamnStraight

I dunno? Please don't tell me I have to buy ANOTHER gun! That'd break my heart.

Okay, which 1911 should I buy under $1500? There's the new topic!

All you 1911 enthusiasts.... SHOOT!
:-)

~mc

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That's a tough one, because there are so many new entries to consider. I have and love a basic, full size Kimber in Stainless that I love. I also, at different times have had a Colt and a Springfield Armory...both also basic, duty type pistols. Of the three, I kept the Kimber because it was very good looking AND more importantly it was the most accurate and easy to shoot well.

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