Samurai Sword

Printable View

11-19-2011, 10:48 PM
sidmind

Samurai Sword

I had (have). A chance to buy this sword at an antique shop for 250$ but I know there are so many fakes out there. Do we have any sword lovers that could tell me if they think it is real or a reproduction? I have been reading for several hours on google and I am thinking its a real WW2 sword. But...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/ace8f77d.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/05e2a455.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/01e24f2e.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/ade951db.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/f09a481b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/a074be9c.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/84340cc7.jpg
11-19-2011, 11:43 PM
Mike Blue

Artifake, through and through. Save your money.
11-19-2011, 11:56 PM
sidmind

What is it that screams fake? All my google research was saying look for things like stainless steel and such
This is carbon, also how old would it be ? A reproduction from the 70s? Or like real new and weathered artificially.
11-20-2011, 01:13 AM
onimaru55

Apart from the shoestring ito :) The steel looks like it's modern. Pattern welded from 2 fairly different steels giving such a stark contrast in the grain. The grain itself does not ring a bell for me. Japanese styles are pretty formalised & tamahagane is far more subtle.
11-20-2011, 06:02 AM
Mike Blue

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidmind

What is it that screams fake? All my google research was saying look for things like stainless steel and such
This is carbon, also how old would it be ? A reproduction from the 70s? Or like real new and weathered artificially.

This is a made in China fake maybe more than a week but not more than five years or so when these dodgers started creeping into the market. I've seen them priced as low as 50 USD. Everything about it is wrong.

The lacquer work looks nearly new while all the rest of the fittings look well patinated. Why would you have a new saya built and not clean up everything else? Polish the blade (for 100+ USD per inch), since the blade is the most important part of the whole set. The Chinese artifakirs have figured out that there must be a pattern in the blade to "be a real Japanese sword", but they went for a modern patternwelded piece of steel then etched in a western style. The pattern even looks kind of like gassan ryu. I stopped counting layers at 25-50 on the side in view. Add one layer for the core and 25-50 on the back side that's maybe 101 layers and too few for any of the smiths I can think of.

See here: Ko Gassan Katana

The general overall look of a working sword. Simple, clean, elegant, subdued. All the fittings are clean with small delicate features. The second to last photo shows the hada very clearly typical of Gassan Ryu stylee. Now you can see that pattern, but if you ran a fingernail along that surface you wouldn't feel a thing. It's polished completely smooth and reveals the pattern. This artifake would likely break a fingernail if you tried that yourself.

The butt cap has the typical look of a very rare tachi cavalry mount or gunto (e.g. the lanyard loop) but those were a military fitting. Those fittings would not be nearly so ornate and besides these castings are gross. Even the habaki has been badly done. It's premature aging looks terrible and I can't tell from the pictures but there is most usually no engraving at all on the flats of the habaki. The work screams not Japanese, not even bad Japanese stuff. I would not be surprised to find kanji on the habaki (remember they don't belong where I can see them) and perhaps even under the tsuka (handle) because the artifakirs are smart enough to know they should be there too, but they won't make any sense to a person who can read Japanese or if they did because they could be getting better at the fakiry, it won't make sense in the traditional markings expected.

The mid scabbard lanyard thing is maybe something seen on an old tachi perhaps for a very old mount but there were similar features for WWII swords. That suggests old, or very rare, so you'll get the idea that it's really more valuable that the pittance that you can have it for today....but the placement is not at the balance point for this blade nor a real tachi nor a real WWII gunto. And if you did try to stick it in your belt the right way, e.g. edge up, that hanger thingee would get in the way of getting it in your belt in the first place.

See here: 1939 Pattern Shin Gunto

See here: koshirae

In the gunto pictures you can see that it's subdued, much finer quality materials, simpler, no shiny spots, it's war tool. There is a very good picture of the braided wrapping material that should be expected, not as Oz kindly pointed out, old shoestrings or paracord kernmantle.

Wearing it on your belt hanging from that stuff will likely cause it to fall butt first to the ground and if you were lucky you'd impale yourself to keep from grieving over buying this sword like object. If you were really lucky, the next buyer will have this happen and not you! :)

Summary:

1. Conflict between dates on fittings and appurtenances.
2. Ghastly blade, wrong construction
3. Most parts are inconsistent with typical Japanese construction and craftsmanship
4. Features like writing on the wrong surfaces, see habaki
5. Martial artists will see things wrong without even looking at the blade.
6. The assumption that a greedy buyer won't take the time to pay attention.

This will be the most important 250 USD you have ever saved.

What I should be charging the Chinese company who makes these things for advice on what they should be doing...priceless. Where's the MasterCard smilie? :)

I think I got the high points. I know a fellow who could to a power point lecture for probably two hours on this subject alone.
11-20-2011, 07:52 AM
sidmind

Wow thankyou very much. That is way more info than I could Find from google in several hours of research. I am like #6 in your post just a newbie who thought it looked authentic.

I will use your post as a guide in the future. Honestly I don't understand most of what you said but understand enough to know that you know what you are talking about. Thank you very much.
11-20-2011, 08:05 AM
sidmind

FyI here is the part I left out because I wanted the experts like those above to give an opinion from the photos ony not on what I am about to tell you. .....

I just left china and these photos were taken in a Chinese antique mall. Which was my first clue that I should not purchase it. But even to me someone who only knows google research of swords. It looked real to me. I almost purchased it. Glad I did not...and thanks to you guys I am very glad....
11-20-2011, 08:46 PM
thebigspendur

Aside from the technical stuff real swords like that cost several thousands of dollars for the simplest. I know every antiquer dreams of going into a store and finding a Picasso for ten bucks but the chances of that happening are past astronomical.
11-20-2011, 10:32 PM
sidmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Aside from the technical stuff real swords like that cost several thousands of dollars for the simplest. I know every antiquer dreams of going into a store and finding a Picasso for ten bucks but the chances of that happening are past astronomical.

But it does happen. If you don't look you won't find them though.
11-20-2011, 11:25 PM
onimaru55

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidmind

But it does happen. If you don't look you won't find them though.

It was more likely to happen in the 70s-80s when every army disposal store had wall to wall katana. These days... :shrug:
11-21-2011, 02:11 AM
sidmind

I just Found this exact sword on eBay it's 100% identical down to the color/ weathering of the shoe lace and green lacquered sheath, but doesn't have the rust on the blade, the folded steel is closer to the links you sent. Or at least to my untrained eye. They might be improving their technique.
11-21-2011, 03:40 AM
onimaru55

Just a shorter duration in the acid bath.
11-21-2011, 04:10 AM
EisenFaust

Hey the Honjo Masamune (google it) is still out there somewhere!! That's a billion dollar item that could be rusting away on some war-widows mantle...
11-21-2011, 04:14 AM
sidmind

I will come out and say that I was fooled, I am just a very clueless knife lover who knows nothing about swords other than a few times in life I googled. I guess the china fakers count on people like me seeing it at the antique store and putting all these fine details into th sword that I would be fooled. Honestly when I posted this thread I thought one of you would say, hey jump on it. Your missing out on a good deal. Now that I have had time to read and research all that you guys posted I know more now. And won't be fooled again. But I can see where people will be. And that's why they do it....

I hope someone else learns from this thread and does not jump like I almost did.
11-21-2011, 05:09 AM
onimaru55

Sid. There are plenty of good sites out there full of both eye candy & good info. The Kashima sisters site that Mike linked you is one of my favourites & newly made tanto are not a super exe item to consider compared to sword length pieces . You may even have a local Nihonto appreciation society close by where you can see some in the flesh.
11-21-2011, 06:32 AM
sidmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Sid. There are plenty of good sites out there full of both eye candy & good info. The Kashima sisters site that Mike linked you is one of my favourites & newly made tanto are not a super exe item to consider compared to sword length pieces . You may even have a local Nihonto appreciation society close by where you can see some in the flesh.

Ha, I live in BFE okie land nothing like that exists here. Thanks for the post though and effort of your thoughts. But I know my small town in the middle of nowhere. The Internet is my only source of info other than how to rope a cow or make a meth lab.
11-21-2011, 06:54 AM
Bruno

Quote:

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Apart from the shoestring ito :) The steel looks like it's modern. Pattern welded from 2 fairly different steels giving such a stark contrast in the grain. The grain itself does not ring a bell for me. Japanese styles are pretty formalised & tamahagane is far more subtle.

This.

Tamahagane looks for more subtle.
Additionally, real tamahagane swords often has visible folding scars. This is simply a pattern welded modern sword. Depending on what you want with it, it might even be a good sword.
But it is not a traditional katana.

Additionally, the saya and tsuka should not look like a jewelry box vomited all over them, covering them in cheap gaudy gooey.
11-26-2011, 01:57 PM
dudleythetogi

Normally come here for razor info and just started picking away at other parts of this forum,thought it was kind of interesting to find this here.I haver a 30 year background in Japanese swords,study and restoration.By no means makes me an expert but it makes qualifies me in a certain"niche"in the sword world.I was trained to look at steel,workmanship(finish),and shape.These show up regularly on Nihonto Message Board • Index page "the Nihonto Message Board",probably some of the most knowledgeable group around for the study of "Nihonto".They also show up at gun and antique shows where the dealers think think they are getting a good deal,find out they got nailed,and try to dump them on the unsuspecting new collector.Alot of these swords appear to be a bastardized verion of the "Gunto"which can have anything from a piece of heat treated,ground to shape tool steel,oil quenched-selectivly heat treated(hamon)barstock,oil quenched-forged and folded,non traditional steel,water quenched-folded,non traditional steel,to Gendaito-modern traditional,tamahagane or approved steel,or an ancestral blade.Bottom line--for most of you that want to buy your first Japanese sword,do your homework first,buy a book.But I also may take excepion to these being good swords,they are made to deceive,as such it would be questionable whether you can cut with these swords or not.Some have been known to have rat-tail tangs(nakago) and will snap off at the tsuka if even swung through the air(althogh most of these newer ones have the full"nakago" and most that post on the forum want them translated,which turns out to be some jibberish)Even with the full tang,the heat treat comes into question,which if not properly done can make the sword snap or fail if it strikes an object.
Again,if you want a real Japanese sword,go to the link provided,and expect to pay a considerably bit more money for a real sword.
Greg
12-04-2011, 10:08 PM
episaacs

Try this website... good resource for swords of all stripes...Hanwei Practical XL Katana Review
12-12-2011, 12:07 AM
ScottGoodman

Drive down to my place & you can have one quite similar to that one...yes, have it. I got suckered 6-8 years ago myself. I do have a couple of waki's you can look at that are the real deal though for eye candy. I've also got a set of Practical Elites from Hanwei, nice set if you are looking at getting into cutting some mats...
12-12-2011, 01:54 AM
sidmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by shooter74743

Drive down to my place & you can have one quite similar to that one...yes, have it. I got suckered 6-8 years ago myself. I do have a couple of waki's you can look at that are the real deal though for eye candy. I've also got a set of Practical Elites from Hanwei, nice set if you are looking at getting into cutting some mats...

.
I am really thinking about getting one of the American made Waki swords, Perhaps something from zombietools.com