Damascus question

I have a question for the makers that use pattern welded steel, either stuff that they make or stuff you get from others smiths. I notice that a lot of the damascus razors use simple patterns like random and many times with lower layer counts. I have also noticed some guys like Mr Lewis forging fairly close to shape. My question is that with the DEEP hollow grinds used on many razors, do you have a problem with more complex patterns or even higher layer count steel "washing out" as you grind that deep into them? I know that some of the "end grain" based mosaic steel has the same pattern all the way though, but some, like twist, looks very different when you get toward the center of a bar than on the outside.

I have not had experience with complex patterns. I tend to use random patterned and plain layered steels. The randomness from forging matches my style and vision of what I want in a razor.

I will do a few choice hammers blows to break up the pattern in a way I like on the blade, but I am not using complex pattern welded steels.

Devon Thomas has made some really nice razors with complex patterned layered steels, maybe search the forum for some of his work.

Charlie

Charlie, i have seen a fair number of his razors, kitchen, knives, etc. He is operating on a higher plane because he uses stainless and makes HUGE billets. :dropjaw: I saw a pic of a feather pattern razor of his that just rocked!!! Are you forging your damascus by hand?

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Originally Posted by spazola

I have not had experience with complex patterns. I tend to use random patterned and plain layered steels. The randomness from forging matches my style and vision of what I want in a razor.

Devon Thomas has made some really nice razors with complex patterned layered steels, maybe search the forum for some of his work.

Charlie

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Had to google Devon
Damn he has some awesome billets

Last time that I heard, he was making some crazy high carbon stainless damascus where he uses the moly in ATS34 for the silver color instead of the nickel in the 304 low carbon stainless or pure nickel when mixed with AEB-L or 19C26. That means that he won't have to keep the nickel bearing steel or nickel content to no more than 10%. I heave never been able to get a complete answer, but for some reason, it seems that nickel and higher carbon martensitic stainless steel don't mix well or doesn't do anything desirable enough for anyone to make the stuff. He has apparently also done some crazy combinations like CPM3V/154CM and D2/154CM. All of that stainless stuff is supposed to be crazy difficult to forge weld.

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Originally Posted by Substance

Had to google Devon
Damn he has some awesome billets

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Complex patterns don't always make sense because hollow grinding will destroy the pattern in some types.

Devon's feather damascus razors are a feast for the eyes!

Bruno, I know for sure that drilled and "leveled" raindrop pattern will wash out, but twist and either "cut and leveled" or pressed and ground ladder typically will not. Any pattern pressed into the billet will should go all the way though. Twisted billets get the little"stars" instead of the bands when you get to the center of a billet. I have seen one bladesmith split a twist billet and flip it inside out , forge weld it back together and forge to shape so he could get a really funky star pattern on the big knife. Have you run across some others where you mess up the pattern when you grind to the center? Does random pattern get too "linear" when ground to razor thinness unless you forge to shape? I have seen that happen in some billets done on a press or especially a rolling mill unless you "randomly" whack it with a hammer or put some dips. dings and dents in it on the press and then grind flat.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Complex patterns don't always make sense because hollow grinding will destroy the pattern in some types.

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That is the delight of playing with the material on the inside of the bar. Far too many who call themselves smiths are still stuck working the outside of the bar/billet.

There are three basic ways to manipulate patterns. Incise a pattern into the bar then forge flat, forge a pattern into the bar and grind away the surface to flat or twist. Twisting was/is a favorite technique of European smiths who perfected it and the desired changes in the center of a bar are very well described (see M. Sachse's works from 30 years ago) Combine those in a variety of ways and you have the basics. Add a fourth variable, mixing patterns in the layers of material before welding and it can get complicated quickly. Laying up mosaics (the middle of the bar stuff) with the variety of parquet forms and more complication occurs.

Pattern washout is a problem for Damascus makers who are in too much of a hurry. They predominantly sell a lot of pretty patterned flat bars. I see this a lot in Pakistani Damascus and washout occurs almost routinely. Sometimes it's really the stock removal guys fault. You are right about rolling mills. That tool can linearize a pattern very quickly. A hydraulic press is not always the solution, or the problem. And just to make sure, it's not always the fault or cure using a hammer.

Thinking this through, there are a few simple solutions that work to avoid this problem. Devon is a very rare person to do what he does, there are others, and reproducing Devon-like patterns in carbon steels is probably easier. It takes a lot of pattern manipulation to get to the point where these kinds of things become a little clearer. Even when you think you can mostly control it, the steel will still surprise you.

Thank you, Mr. Blue. It is always a treat to get input from someone with as much experience as you have. :D i have done some crushed W billets and twisted one and Ferry flipped a couple, but I have mostly stuff with the pressed ladder and random at this point.I tried an accordion cut early on, but missed the part where it said you are supposed to do that at WELDING heat. :rofl2: I really need to make up some good squaring dies for my little press or have some made. In my limited experience, squaring (or failing to square) those end patterns is where things can go wrong fast assuming you got everything to weld properly.

Attachment 194901

No doubt, welding heat is required. Dies can be helpful.

Pardon the poor camera, and I was in a hurry surface grinding these, but you can see results.

That is slick!!! Simple looking, but when I stare at them, they start to look like a 3D drawing of a cube. :D So what are you going to do with them next? Did you do those with hexagon dies?

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Attachment 194901

No doubt, welding heat is required. Dies can be helpful.

Pardon the poor camera, and I was in a hurry surface grinding these, but you can see results.

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These are proof of concept tiles. Next is to make bars of the same/similar and forge weld them together, then repeat. Same as other mosaic. A good friend of mine and I schemed for a while and settled on open dies. The original idea came from two very good friends, Daryl Meier and Bill Fiorini. That attempt was done in a box with powder. It's truly gorgeous stuff to look at. These are strictly old school methods. It's difficult for me to rate the degree of difficulty since it was a success.

These are two flips that i did a couple of years back. Sorry for the lousy pics. The small blade was lightly twisted W's cut at 45 degrees. The pattern ended up almost looking like waves rising up form the edge. IIRC, the longer blade was just straight W's done the same way and forged to shape a little bit. I had just discovered the miracle of kerosene "flux" for initial welds and welded the flip with the bar wrapped in low temperature HT foil. I was able to avoid the little white waled seams for the most part. By the second press, the foil just fell right off of the bar. It was a bit scary at first, but then funny to watch the little jet of flame find its way out of the envelope when the kerosene ignited. :D
Attachment 194906
Attachment 194907

So how will you keep a pattern like that from washing out in a deep hollow grind?

It goes all the way through. That is actually the end pattern repeated down the length of the blade and distorted from drawing it out.. You can see where I forged the points out, but the blades were pretty thick when I ground into them. The concern I have about that type of pattern in a hard use blade is the tile welds. Not sure that will be an issue with a razor, but I am a Nervous Nelly. The little knife started off as a billet intended to be "firestorm" twist which would get more interesting as you ground into it, but my bad elbow gave out before I could twist it up tight enough to where I thought it wold really look good. It was supposed to be a bigger knife, but I forgot to use two of the tiles when I was welding up the billet. I found them later on the bench and used them for a guard and buttcap on another knife. :banghead: I have a billet now that will be 45 layers when I turn it 90 degrees and do the W's. I will stack another time or two more than on these and see if I can get a finer patter because with razor sized bar stock, i will be drawing it out a fair bit more. These were like 1 1/2 inches wide before i ground off the flux core welder wire mess on the edges.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

So how will you keep a pattern like that from washing out in a deep hollow grind?

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I just saw a pic of a Joe Chandler razor using your twist steel. It had three big "stars" running down the middle of the blade. Pretty stuff!!!

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Originally Posted by JDM61

It goes all the way through. ... I just saw a pic of a Joe Chandler razor using your twist steel.

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That's one way to solve the problem of pattern washout, but you correctly identify the creation of a whole new risk of those welds coming apart. Fix one problem only to create another. Razors are small items and in the quench hardening happens at the speed of sound and there is a lot of dynamic movement that can blow a complex pattern into pieces. It's a risky business.

It is my great pleasure to be associated with Joe's amazing work.

I had the pleasure of learning from (well just watching in awe really) Hank and Ed about powder damascus once. Most of it was lost on me but I hope some day to try making a razor from it. Your work looks very lovely indeed Mike.

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Originally Posted by mikew

I had the pleasure of learning from (well just watching in awe really) Hank and Ed about powder damascus once. Most of it was lost on me but I hope some day to try making a razor from it. Your work looks very lovely indeed Mike.

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Well Mike let me know when you are ready and maybe I can be the first owner of the first Michael Waterhouse custom Damascus 8/8 Smiler for Barbers now that's a razor I would love own.

Thanks for your kind words Mike. Your work speaks volumes.

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Originally Posted by JDM61

Are you forging your damascus by hand?

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Most of my damascus comes from Mike Blue. I am not set up to make damascus.

Charlie