Thread: Damascus question

I have a question for the makers that use pattern welded steel, either stuff that they make or stuff you get from others smiths. I notice that a lot of the damascus razors use simple patterns like random and many times with lower layer counts. I have also noticed some guys like Mr Lewis forging fairly close to shape. My question is that with the DEEP hollow grinds used on many razors, do you have a problem with more complex patterns or even higher layer count steel "washing out" as you grind that deep into them? I know that some of the "end grain" based mosaic steel has the same pattern all the way though, but some, like twist, looks very different when you get toward the center of a bar than on the outside.

I have not had experience with complex patterns. I tend to use random patterned and plain layered steels. The randomness from forging matches my style and vision of what I want in a razor.

I will do a few choice hammers blows to break up the pattern in a way I like on the blade, but I am not using complex pattern welded steels.

Devon Thomas has made some really nice razors with complex patterned layered steels, maybe search the forum for some of his work.

Charlie

Charlie, i have seen a fair number of his razors, kitchen, knives, etc. He is operating on a higher plane because he uses stainless and makes HUGE billets. I saw a pic of a feather pattern razor of his that just rocked!!! Are you forging your damascus by hand?

Originally Posted by spazola

I have not had experience with complex patterns. I tend to use random patterned and plain layered steels. The randomness from forging matches my style and vision of what I want in a razor.

Devon Thomas has made some really nice razors with complex patterned layered steels, maybe search the forum for some of his work.

Charlie

Had to google Devon
Damn he has some awesome billets

Last time that I heard, he was making some crazy high carbon stainless damascus where he uses the moly in ATS34 for the silver color instead of the nickel in the 304 low carbon stainless or pure nickel when mixed with AEB-L or 19C26. That means that he won't have to keep the nickel bearing steel or nickel content to no more than 10%. I heave never been able to get a complete answer, but for some reason, it seems that nickel and higher carbon martensitic stainless steel don't mix well or doesn't do anything desirable enough for anyone to make the stuff. He has apparently also done some crazy combinations like CPM3V/154CM and D2/154CM. All of that stainless stuff is supposed to be crazy difficult to forge weld.

Originally Posted by Substance

Had to google Devon
Damn he has some awesome billets

Complex patterns don't always make sense because hollow grinding will destroy the pattern in some types.

Devon's feather damascus razors are a feast for the eyes!

Bruno, I know for sure that drilled and "leveled" raindrop pattern will wash out, but twist and either "cut and leveled" or pressed and ground ladder typically will not. Any pattern pressed into the billet will should go all the way though. Twisted billets get the little"stars" instead of the bands when you get to the center of a billet. I have seen one bladesmith split a twist billet and flip it inside out , forge weld it back together and forge to shape so he could get a really funky star pattern on the big knife. Have you run across some others where you mess up the pattern when you grind to the center? Does random pattern get too "linear" when ground to razor thinness unless you forge to shape? I have seen that happen in some billets done on a press or especially a rolling mill unless you "randomly" whack it with a hammer or put some dips. dings and dents in it on the press and then grind flat.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Complex patterns don't always make sense because hollow grinding will destroy the pattern in some types.

That is the delight of playing with the material on the inside of the bar. Far too many who call themselves smiths are still stuck working the outside of the bar/billet.

There are three basic ways to manipulate patterns. Incise a pattern into the bar then forge flat, forge a pattern into the bar and grind away the surface to flat or twist. Twisting was/is a favorite technique of European smiths who perfected it and the desired changes in the center of a bar are very well described (see M. Sachse's works from 30 years ago) Combine those in a variety of ways and you have the basics. Add a fourth variable, mixing patterns in the layers of material before welding and it can get complicated quickly. Laying up mosaics (the middle of the bar stuff) with the variety of parquet forms and more complication occurs.

Pattern washout is a problem for Damascus makers who are in too much of a hurry. They predominantly sell a lot of pretty patterned flat bars. I see this a lot in Pakistani Damascus and washout occurs almost routinely. Sometimes it's really the stock removal guys fault. You are right about rolling mills. That tool can linearize a pattern very quickly. A hydraulic press is not always the solution, or the problem. And just to make sure, it's not always the fault or cure using a hammer.

Thinking this through, there are a few simple solutions that work to avoid this problem. Devon is a very rare person to do what he does, there are others, and reproducing Devon-like patterns in carbon steels is probably easier. It takes a lot of pattern manipulation to get to the point where these kinds of things become a little clearer. Even when you think you can mostly control it, the steel will still surprise you.

Thank you, Mr. Blue. It is always a treat to get input from someone with as much experience as you have. i have done some crushed W billets and twisted one and Ferry flipped a couple, but I have mostly stuff with the pressed ladder and random at this point.I tried an accordion cut early on, but missed the part where it said you are supposed to do that at WELDING heat. I really need to make up some good squaring dies for my little press or have some made. In my limited experience, squaring (or failing to square) those end patterns is where things can go wrong fast assuming you got everything to weld properly.