One I'm working on, second attempt

I've been away a looooong time. I've been making knives instead of playing with razors, but I decided I'd try it again now that I upgraded to a Wilmont Grinders TAG101 from my Craftsman 2x42.

My first razor was O1 and a full wedge and absolutely un-honeable, but it lead me to knife making, so I am thankful I at least tried. It was made with an angle grinder and files.

This is 1/4" A2. It's rough ground right now, I'll thin it out one it comes back from heat treat. I ground it on a 2" wheel, because that's all I have. If someone has a 5" to 10" wheel they would like to get rid of, please let me know.

Right now it's looking like about a 7/8 size, which I find personally about perfect. It's about a quarter hollow. Hopefully I can get it done soon and try shaving with a razor that is.......a bit better grind than the first! Lol

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-i...520151123a.jpg

Awesome! I would like to see continued and finished razor.:chapeau

Improving is always good. Looking like a good start.

Looks like a great shaving blade. Like the shoulderless flow.

What kind of scales will you use?

Nice clean job of grinding. Well done. You might consider leaving a tad more steel at the spine next time. Please post pictures after you finish grind and get scales done.

That looks really good :)

Thanks guys. I'm not sure what kind of scales I'll use. Maybe g10. I have a lot of it from knifemaking.

Looks very good so far, just a personal thing not in anyway a criticism I would like to see the heel a little more rounded off just think it would give it a better overall look. :-)

Looking good so far. Please post some more progress pics as you go.

What's the reason for choosing A2?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

What's the reason for choosing A2?

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It was the cheap scrap that the water jet guy had in 0.250". I think I paid $50 for eight or ten blanks. It might not be ideal, in fact I'd rather have had O1 or 52100, but A2 at 60-61 should be fine.

I'd stay away from 52100 if I were you. After heat treatment it is so very abrasion resistant that grinding it becomes a real drag.
If you don't have a good belt grinder with ceramic belts, 52100 is not a good steel to work with.
and even if you have, for a razor it is really no better than O1.

But indeed, if you got a dozen blanks for 50$, that's a good deal especially.

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Originally Posted by celticcrusader

Looks very good so far, just a personal thing not in anyway a criticism I would like to see the heel a little more rounded off just think it would give it a better overall look. :-)

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I thought much the same jamie.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I'd stay away from 52100 if I were you. After heat treatment it is so very abrasion resistant that grinding it becomes a real drag.
If you don't have a good belt grinder with ceramic belts, 52100 is not a good steel to work with.
and even if you have, for a razor it is really no better than O1.

But indeed, if you got a dozen blanks for 50$, that's a good deal especially.

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I just upgraded to a Wilmont Grinders TAG101. I also have that 1 hp disc grinder seen here, also variable speed. :)

Attachment 201746

The next thing I'm going to say, please take lighthearted, because I'm saying it with a smile. I'm not overly concerned about 52100's abrasion resistance compared to O1. 95% of my knives are in CPM20CV, which is Crucible's version of B-U M390. Of course, I finish it out almost completely ground before heat treat, because at 62 rhc and 4% vanadium, it's as hard to grind as woodpecker lips. Otherwise I use 52100 and AEB-L, both of which I grind completely after heat treat. Not bad at all with ceramic belts. I wish I could find thick AEB-L, because it is actually razor blade steel and would make a great straight razor.


I love O1 though. Very fine grained and takes a super keen edge. 52100 does too though. Lots of high end kitchen knives being made in 52100 right now. I think razor guys and kitchen knife guys are about equally as crazy regarding their edges. Both know what SHARP! is. A yanagi-ba in Hitachi White steel will make you shiver it's so sharp, even coming from a straight razor frame of mind. It's that single bevel that makes it so crazy.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I'd stay away from 52100 if I were you. After heat treatment it is so very abrasion resistant that grinding it becomes a real drag.
If you don't have a good belt grinder with ceramic belts, 52100 is not a good steel to work with.
and even if you have, for a razor it is really no better than O1.

But indeed, if you got a dozen blanks for 50$, that's a good deal especially.

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I just upgraded to one of the top of the line grinders made right now, a Wilmont Grinders TAG101. I also have that 1 hp disc grinder seen here, also variable speed. :)

Attachment 201746

The next thing I'm going to say, please take lighthearted, because I'm saying it with a smile. I'm not overly concerned about 52100's abrasion resistance compared to O1. 95% of my knives are in CPM20CV, which is Crucible's version of B-U M390. Of course, I finish it out almost completely ground before heat treat, because at 62 rhc and

I look forward to seeing your progress. For the scales, it's truly easier to start with 1/8" material than messing on thinning down knife scales...been there and done that.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

I look forward to seeing your progress. For the scales, it's truly easier to start with 1/8" material than messing on thinning down knife scales...been there and done that.

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Oh yeah, absolutely. I do a lot of stacked scales on my knives, so I have a massive amount of 0.030-0.125" G10. Most of my natural material knife scales aren't long enough for razors anyway, being around 5" long or so. I make mostly smaller knives.

Sharp and abrasion reistance are 2 different things though. The suminagashi steel I use has a white paper steel core. It takes an incredible edge. But so does my standard O2 (I actually don't like O1 that well, though it is good steel). Imo O2 is the best steel possible for a razor.

What I was getting at: spectialty steel can make sense for tools that see wear; which have to endure a lot of rough work. A kitchen knife in 52100 makes sense. A razor in 52100 doesn't. The things that 52100 is good at, are irrelevant for straight razors. A straight razor is not subject to shearing forces, not subject to impact, not subject to wrenching, etc. From a functional aspect, 52100 does absolutely nothing for a razor except make it a lot harder to make :)

Interesting because the people selling O2 in the UK say that one of its qualities is that it has a fair amount of wear resistance. It also has the same amount of chromium as steel like 5160 and 9260 and a TON of manganese. As for the toughness of something like 52100, i would think that would be a good thing if you were going for high hardness and VERY thin blades. One downside with 52100 is that you cannot get the optimum heat treatment for fine, stable edges using a forge to austenize it. You need some fairly good temperature control to keep all of the carbon from going into solution and that says that it must be kept under 1500F, 1475F seeming to be the optimum temperature. If you go by what you are saying, then I would think that something like Hitachi Whiite #1 would be the "ultimate" razor steel as it is very pure, fine grained, takes scary fine edge, is easy to hone, doesn't have all of the "impurities" that can negatively impact those desirable properties and it obviously
raisin" to some fairly primitive forging and heat treating methods. A lot of the hype that you might have heard about 52100 is just hype, but there is some underlying truth to that hype, even f the truth doesn't line up with certain claims regarding magical methodology. The interesting part is that some of the current methodology for getting the MOST out of 52100 when it comes to fine stable edges and crazy sharpness was devised while trying to debunk much of the hype surrounding the steel. A series of happy accidents that actually confirmed what the handful of guys using 52100 like Bob Kramer, the very famous maker of custom kitchen knives, apparently already knew.

No the toughness doesn't add anything. Razors are not subject to shearing force, impact or load. For a fine edge you need a crystalline structure that is as even and fine grained as possible.
White paper steel is very good stuff for razors, but so is 1095, or SC145 (which is even better than white paper steel) and O2 (which has almost nothing else but Manganese).

Using 52100 for a razor is like going to the grocery store down the street for a loaf of bread, in a hummer instead of a compact car.
It's not faster, it takes up more resources, and you have a hell of a time finding parking space. There is a good application for each type of steel. For 52100, razors are not it. For kitchen knives it is, because a kitchen knife edge is very fine, and subject to wiggling, impacts, and other bad things. But a 52100 sushi knife is just as pointless as a 52100 razor.

And again, unless a smith is regularly making razors, I really don't give 2cts of what steel they use or why or how famous they are.
Plenty of famous knifemakers I could name are experts in their own field and completely clueless when it comes to razors.
Which reminds me that I am still waiting to see your razors.

I have to agree with Bruno on this one. I'm just finishing a razor in 1095. It's the first time that I've not used 01. I have not honed it yet, so how I like it is yet to be seen, but I came to thinking that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides in the 01 were not helping the edge a bit and just creating an abrasion resistance that I was fighting through all of the post heat treat work and honing. As long as the steel takes a good edge and responds well to stropping, wear resistance is a negative IMO.

I find it interesting that someone would say that 52100 is too abrasion resistant and yet recommend O1 as a very good razor steel. When heat treated PROPERLY for cutting tools of the type that we are talking about, o1 is considered by people who actually research such things (not me but others much more experienced that me) to have slightly superior abrasion resistance to 52100 het treated for cutting tool use because of the tungsten content and the resulting carbides, at the expense of some degree of fine edge holding ability. if you have 52100 that is too abrasion resistance, then you have probably heat treated it like if you were making roller bearings. That means big carbides, most if not all of the carbon in solution and probably some RA to boot, none of which are desirable for something like a razor OR a kitchen knife. You also give up some of that toughness that we allegedly do not need. Hence my previous comments about low temperature austenizing.

How hard is it. Some people forget that there can be a SIGNIFCANT difference in abrasion resistance with a simple steel like 1095 depending on whether you leave it too soft like the 55-57 Rc that you sometimes see on a lot of "tactical knives" and the 62+Rc that you see in say kitchen knives. Some very knowledgable folks will tell you that if your heat treat is dead on and yo are getting the maximum out of he steel, that you can take O1 up to as high as 63 for things like kitchen knives and you would be seeing some pretty serious abrasion resistance at that level or hardness. 61-63 for anything other than an chopper is just fine.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

I have to agree with Bruno on this one. I'm just finishing a razor in 1095. It's the first time that I've not used 01. I have not honed it yet, so how I like it is yet to be seen, but I came to thinking that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides in the 01 were not helping the edge a bit and just creating an abrasion resistance that I was fighting through all of the post heat treat work and honing. As long as the steel takes a good edge and responds well to stropping, wear resistance is a negative IMO.

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Originally Posted by JDM61

How hard is it. Some people forget that there can be a SIGNIFCANT difference in abrasion resistance with a simple steel like 1095 depending on whether you leave it too soft like the 55-57 Rc that you sometimes see on a lot of "tactical knives" and the 62+Rc that you see in say kitchen knives. Some very knowledgable folks will tell you that if your heat treat is dead on and yo are getting the maximum out of he steel, that you can take O1 up to as high as 63 for things like kitchen knives and you would be seeing some pretty serious abrasion resistance at that level or hardness. 61-63 for anything other than an chopper is just fine.

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Just saying that I don't feel that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides do anything positive for a razor.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

Just saying that I don't feel that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides do anything positive for a razor.

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Which makes it all the more interesting when some European smiths make very nice razors out of 115W8 which has more tungsten than even Hitachi Blue #2. ;)

These guys aren't trying to put you down or question your knowledge, they are just trying to share theirs. I don't know where yours comes from, though you seem to have a fair bit, but I know theirs comes from razors, which is what you are trying to make. Take it or leave it, you'll learn something one way or the other.

My .02, and I know next to nothing about steel, is that your hardness range is beyond where most razors go because, as Bruno said, you don't need it for razors.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

I have to agree with Bruno on this one. I'm just finishing a razor in 1095. It's the first time that I've not used 01. I have not honed it yet, so how I like it is yet to be seen, but I came to thinking that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides in the 01 were not helping the edge a bit and just creating an abrasion resistance that I was fighting through all of the post heat treat work and honing. As long as the steel takes a good edge and responds well to stropping, wear resistance is a negative IMO.

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Fighting through the resistance is indeed a good description. when I made O1 razors a long time ago, I had to fight the blade.
Just yesterday I made a couple of new chisels for hammering in my mark (the old ones had kicked the bucket) and for that I used O1.
I'd have used 52100 if I had the correct size stock. O1 will do.

If I have to hit it with a hammer, I pick O1 over O2 every day of the week.
The right steel for each purpose.

For the same reason, stainless never really took off for razors. It's a lot tougher, and not as good for edges due to the carbides.
For my daughters and wife I make stainless kitchen knives, because they care nothing for carbon steel.
Stainless is not a better steel, but for the women in my house, the best steel for that purpose.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

Just saying that I don't feel that the Chromium and Tungsten carbides do anything positive for a razor.

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They don't. No worries.

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Originally Posted by JDM61

Which makes it all the more interesting when some European smiths make very nice razors out of 115W8 which has more tungsten than even Hitachi Blue #2. ;)

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Which has nothing to do with anything.
If I make a razor with a hamon, is it a better razor? of if I make it from Damascus? or suminagashi? or tamahagane?
Nope.

Want to know why I use those?
Because people ask me to. Or if I make them without an order, because I know people will buy them and I can make a profit.
I've seen blades by other European smiths with various types of steel, which are used only because a) they look nice, or b) they think it is better, or c) it's what they use for other things.
So your reference to what European smiths do has as much to do with this discussion as the price of bacon.
And most European smiths I know who made razors are knife guys, not razor guys. And then we're back to the fact that most knife guys are clueless about razors.

You're again trying to show off, dropping names, calling on external validation and posting meaningless steel trivia in an effort to... what?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

in an effort to... what?

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I could ask the same question.........

Half-time boys, swap sides

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Originally Posted by JDM61

I could ask the same question.........

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So far all you do is make people doubt what they are doing, even though there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.
You have 355 posts while claiming to learn, but you don't want to learn. You just show off. Several of the things you posted so far are near copy pastes from other places.

Razors are not knives, and what is good for one is not the best for the other, yet you keep harping on steel trivia and names of smiths to argue that if it is good for knives, it is good for razors.
It's not. And if you would bother to get your hands dirty and learn to make razors, you would find this out for yourself.

Bruno tells the truth. Not all the masters who make knives can make a razor, not all. Sometimes, in the manufacture of razors, still have questions then later after manufacture.:hmmm:

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Originally Posted by rolodave

Looks like a great shaving blade. Like the shoulderless flow.

What kind of scales will you use?

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+1 on the shoulderless flow

This forum is what got me to making razors, as I had made a few knives in the garage & my mentality is that if you can do it...so can I. I started with stock removal and sent off my first dozen or so razors off to be heat treated. I got to thinking to myself, am I being honest about "I made it". I wasn't making it as there was a step, albeit a large one, that was out of my control. Only time a razor came back flawed was if I ground it too thin & ended up with a potato chip razor. I picked up a forge and started out with knife blades, sold enough to pay for the forge. Started working on hamons with knives & razors...now I see why Charlie has a cup of RSO's at his shop when I was there at a hammer-in.

Now that I am where I am, comfortable moving steel around on the anvil, grinding, heat treating, grinding more & finishing. Before I didn't appreciate near as much the guys who make functional works of art. Key word is functional, I've had quite a few very good looking custom razors in my hands including my own...but if they don't hone up properly, strop right, feel right shaving, hold up to a shave...you have a RSO.

What's my point? Knives are like mowing the lawn, most anyone can mow the lawn. Make a razor and you will really get the guys attention here on SRP in the forge section & they will jump over one another to help you. Don't tell me how to make a razor, show me how you made your razor. Be honest with yourself, is it a good razor? Where can it be improved? Send it out to be tried out by a shaving/making veteran...there is always room for improvement. Most of all, just make one & quit talking about it.

Honestly, I'm not sure in even going to finish this one out. I think the spine is wrong. Who said earlier on the thread about the hollow grind being taken too high? I have no desire to compete something that isn't going to be right anyway.

I don't have a whole cup of rso's, but maybe I should start.....I think I'm up to four that have been scrapped for one reason or another. Now knives.....Yeah, I make throwing knives. No, they don't start out like that, but they end up like that sometimes. Heck, the other day I made a throwing railroad iron piece. Thank goodness I don't have drywall up in my shop........I swear I'm not a violent person, just anal about quality.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Don't tell me how to make a razor, show me how you made your razor.

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The truth of the pudding is in eating it, not in talking about how good it could be.
You are 100% correct.

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Originally Posted by medicevans

just anal about quality.

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Don't let that stop you from finishing things. You'll keep improving as long as you shoot for 'better' instead of 'perfect'.
I don't have that many RSOs because most things can be salvaged by removing more metal.
A lot can be learned by figuring out what went wrong and then fixing it. If nothing else, it will motivate you not to make the same mistake again. :)

It's a start my friend & I commend you for posting your works. Go ahead and finish it out as the entire process is a learning curve all the way to the shave. That piece of steel still has more to be learned from. This is what has been mentioned above, no matter what you "know & can recite", it's the application to the steel that matters. Razors are tough to make, period. Look at all the knife makers, then look at the number of quality razor makers. Sure makes you appreciate a quality razor!

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

It's a start my friend & I commend you for posting your works. Go ahead and finish it out as the entire process is a learning curve all the way to the shave. That piece of steel still has more to be learned from. This is what has been mentioned above, no matter what you "know & can recite", it's the application to the steel that matters. Razors are tough to make, period. Look at all the knife makers, then look at the number of quality razor makers. Sure makes you appreciate a quality razor!

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I'm not even close to making my own blades, a lot more needs to come together in my mind and life for that to happen. For now I'm very happy making and learning restoration and customs. It's been fulfilling.
This what you said is so true for all aspects, for every project I think. Especially such complicated ones such as SR creation.. the more I read these posts, the more respect I'm gaining for the artists/manufacturers of old and new.
Someday, I'll be there I hope. Building blocks of info and know how, jumping in and following through. Good stuff.
Thanks for the thought provocative input!