4140 steel and other steel for post anvils?

Hey guys :)

Today I picked up steel from an Internet auction lot that I won.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/randyd...57653852821309

Everything in the pails/crates is 4140 steel and is small ( good for peening anvils?)

The other steel is of an unknown type except the one block marked D2.

My intent is to make a post anvil, ala Charlie Lewis. My question is 2 fold. Regarding the D2, roughly 3" x 3" , will heat treating it be enough to use as an anvil ...or.... should I weld on some 4140 steel to the top and heat treat that?

2nd question...The other potential pieces for a post anvil is the big block to the right of the D2 block, 4 1/2" x 4 1/2" x 7", The steel type is unknown. To play it safe, should I weld some 4140 to the top and then heat treat it? The other blocks under consideration are the 2 tall pieces with orange on the end. They are 2" x 4" x 12"+

Oh ya, also, what else can I use the small pieces of 4140 for? Ideas please. :)

nice score
I think the 4140 can be used for knives also maybe not sure about Razors but

my knife steel book notes D2 as a semi stainless and basically a 10XX steel with a bit more chromium, it will still rust but it is a little less susceptible to corrosion than regular carbon steel

at worse they would all be good for Damascus etc by the bucket load

I think a couple of my 10XX series bars had yellow ends also, I try remember to check them tonight let you the grade mine are it may help ?

D2 is an air harding steel commonly used in knives, but it supposedly works better when you go off of the "factory spec" HT which gives BIG carbides. The old joke about D2 was that it takes a crappy edge and holds it forever. IIRC, Bob Dozier was one of the first guys to really come up with an alternate HT regime to get a finer edge without the huge primary carbides. 4140 is not really suitable for knives but a number of guys use it for things like tactical tomahawks.

D2 has half again as much carbon as 1095, enough chrome to make it almost "officlally" stainless steel and a fair bit of other alloying elements like vanadium and moly. it requires an austenizing temp 350-400F hotter than 10xx steels. close to the low austenizing temperature of CPM 3V. For tooling, it is highly wear resistant.

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Originally Posted by Substance

nice score
I think the 4140 can be used for knives also maybe not sure about Razors but

my knife steel book notes D2 as a semi stainless and basically a 10XX steel with a bit more chromium, it will still rust but it is a little less susceptible to corrosion than regular carbon steel

at worse they would all be good for Damascus etc by the bucket load

I think a couple of my 10XX series bars had yellow ends also, I try remember to check them tonight let you the grade mine are it may help ?

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I will not be using the 4140 for any knife or razor work. It is simply not suitable.
The small pieces of 4140 could obviously be used as peening anvils for razor. Some larger pieces possibly for hammer heads. Perhaps use some of it for hardy hole tool making? There are a few pieces of round bar 4140 that could be welded to the top of a hardy hole tool, or make a hardy hole cutoff tool, etc ?

My main question is about using the D2 block as a post anvil and the second question is about the need to weld 4140 to the tops of the other blocks to serve as post anvils.

the hammer heads idea sound great

You have to figure that 4140 makes very nice anvils and should make nice hammers and tools too. It gets plenty hard enough to whoop up on stuff, just not hard enough to slice real fine. It also works great for gun barrels. Do you think that the other stuff is mild steel? If so, then the 4140 idea sounds like a plan if you can pull it off. My only uneducated concern with D2 is that it is not considered to be a "tough" air hardening steel like A2. It is known more for its increased abrasion resistance compared to A1 and O1 and for its dimensional stability in heat treat..

That's a nice pile of steel you have there!

I made my hardy hot cut tool from 4140 and it works really well. The other pieces I have are going to be turned into other hardy tools as well as axe and hammer heads.

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Originally Posted by JDM61

Do you think that the other stuff is mild steel? If so, then the 4140 idea sounds like a plan if you can pull it off. .

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I have spoken with a few people about what the other steels might be. The recommendations have ranged from spark testing, file hardness testing and ball peen hammer testing.
My thoughts at present are
1. Just how hard do I need the steel to be to hand forge razors? I honestly think that it is nowhere near the requirements of hand drifting a hole for a hammer head. Plus I have no intention of using this steel for any heavy forging of any kind. I have another 170 lb anvil for that stuff.
My plan is to use the ball bearing drop test to get some initial idea and the spark test. I will try hitting the side of the steel piece with a ball peen hammer to see if it dents the material.
I will go from there.
The piece of D2 I will have heat treated because that is a known steel.

For testing I can just lay the steel on its side on my big 170 lb anvil and start forging a razor to see the results and go from there.
I guess I gotta order some 1095 from Aldo Bruno, the New Jersey Steel Baron and get started on this.

How much do you need? I have enough for 48 razors so I probably could spare some.

I don't think it has to be hardened. Iirc, Mike's anvil is just a block of 4140 that is not heat treated.
It's simple really. If you work the steel hot enough, it will always be a lot softer than the anvil steel, so it, and not the anvil will move. :)

Of course that presumes that it, and not the anvil, will be hit. As an amateur, would I be better off with one that is heat treated? Obviously I would not intend to hit it and would try to be careful.

Over time, would the anvil be somewhat hardened by having hot steel pounded on above it?

Yes, it would be work hardened a bit over time. That is what Mike posted about his anvils here in the forge, some time ago in some other discussion.
Now you mention being an amateur. since you are also a scientist, consider this. A heavy blow, a hardened hammer head, and a hardened steel anvil that is 100 times heavier than the hammer. Neither will suffer any plastic deformation. What is the logical conclusion we can make? :hmmm:

Randy, any of those blocks will work as anvils. I have made many of them and they will work even without Heat treatment. Work hardening will be your friend. As Bruno says, the hot steel is plastic, the hammer and anvil less so. The hot steel doesn't have much of a choice.

Thank you Bruno & Mike Blue. Your comments are much appreciated. :tu

This morning, while I was having my first cup of coffee I came to the same conclusion as what Bruno posted. The razor steel will be hot and soft thus it will absorb the force, not the face of the anvil.

Plus this happened this evening........

I went to the Guild of Metal Smiths get together this evening ( Minnesota black smithing group).
There were more than 50 people there with all kinds of cool stuff.
I asked a bunch of them about the steel for the post anvils. There response was that it probably does not matter even if it is mild steel. Their reasoning is that I will be striking metal that is hot & soft so that will absorb the force from the hammer blow. They did concede that if I missed and struck the anvil then it may make a dent . But that is not big deal because I can turn the anvil end for end or mill out the divot or simply cutoff a 1/4" from the end. One guy did look at the piece of steel with the orange end and said he thought it was tool steel. That makes sense since the company that had it for sale was a machine tool company.

The other good thing was that the host had a very big & nice piles of scrap iron! Some round pipe and some square & rectangular tubing. He said I should bring my anvil material over and then we could see what might be suitable for the posts.

This project is moving along nicely. :)

Checked my colours
w2 - orange
1095 - yellow
1075 - blue
1084 - green
O1 - was black or nothing


Attachment 203681
Attachment 203680

Not sure if the colours are universal or not but might help

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, it would be work hardened a bit over time. That is what Mike posted about his anvils here in the forge, some time ago in some other discussion.
Now you mention being an amateur. since you are also a scientist, consider this. A heavy blow, a hardened hammer head, and a hardened steel anvil that is 100 times heavier than the hammer. Neither will suffer any plastic deformation. What is the logical conclusion we can make? :hmmm:

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Logically -and I know this to be true by experience- if neither object has plastic deformation, there will be no loss of energy. And if one object is orders of magnitude heavier than the other, the heavy object will remain in rest, and the other will go flying back with 100% of the speed with which it landed, but in the opposite direction. If you miss a heavy blow, you stand a good chance of hitting yourself full in the face with almost the same speed with which the hammer hit the anvil.

In contrast with the anvil, the deformation of your face will be largely plasic, causing it to absorb most of the impact.

And that 'es no bueno'
I haven't hit myself yet, but I've had a close call.

This is also why working the steel at yellow temperatures is a lot easier on the arm. Firstly because you have to hit less often, but also because the impact of the hammer does a lot more plastic deformation. The colder the steel, the more energy will go back into your arm.

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Originally Posted by Substance

Checked my colours
w2 - orange
1095 - yellow
1075 - blue
1084 - green
O1 - was black or nothing


Attachment 203681
Attachment 203680

Not sure if the colours are universal or not but might help

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I think the coloring system used for steel is universal. That orange on the end matches mine perfectly. Thanks a bunch! :)

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

I think the coloring system used for steel is universal. That orange on the end matches mine perfectly. Thanks a bunch! :)

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I was about to reply with the opposite. (I guess I still am). My impression has always been that these colors were an in house code that varied from warehouse to warehouse, or mill to mill, possibly changing with heat number. I really don't know though. Maybe you and Substance can compare spark tests, since he has a bunch of known steels.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

This project is moving along nicely. :)

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That's great Randy.
I'm looking forward to mooching off of you!

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

I was about to reply with the opposite. (I guess I sill am). My impression has always been that these colors were an in house code that varied from warehouse to warehouse, or mill to mill, possibly changing with heat number. I really don't know though. Maybe you and Substance can compare spark tests, since he has a bunch of known steels.

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Victor, thanks for posting on this. The reason I said universal is because there was a reference to a standardized color coding system chart that I found on the web 2 days ago but who knows what standards the MFG's use?

My O2 is dark blue at the end.

Uddeholm steel color chart

Attachment 203702

Wordpress Color Codes | Coloring Anything

Victor, I just did some quick searching and I think your correct. Ok, so now I will try the spark testing and density methods.
But no matter what the outcome I will still be using these steels as is ! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

I was about to reply with the opposite. (I guess I sill am). My impression has always been that these colors were an in house code that varied from warehouse to warehouse, or mill to mill, possibly changing with heat number. I really don't know though. Maybe you and Substance can compare spark tests, since he has a bunch of known steels.

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sounds good

All else aside, at worst, you have a lot of material for making good tools and such. Might have some folding knife blades hiding in the block of D2 if you are so inclined. :D My experience with US suppliers like Alro is that yellow on the end means 1018. The HRA(hot roll annealed) is probably 1018 too.

So far I have been working on putting together the parts for the post anvils. I now have 4 of the disc brake rotors for a base plus I have found the tubing to fit the various anvils and a guy who will do the cutting and welding ( Randy Stinar in Cannon Falls). They should be done in about 3 weeks.