I'm curious. What stainless steels typically make the best SR's since unlike Knives you want less carbides for a smooth shaver?
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I'm curious. What stainless steels typically make the best SR's since unlike Knives you want less carbides for a smooth shaver?
I have shaved with an ats34 and a cpm154 razors they preformed well. Whether it is the best, I do not know, but I do know both will make a good razor.
Charlie
I imagine the sandvik steels would bode well, but what about a 440a or even a 420hc, while deemed appropriate for "cheap" Knives, basic decent entry level steels in the knife world, in a SR you wouldn't have to worry so much about toughness nor "working edges", and their lower carbon levels would make for minimized carbide formation, and their softer properties since you're "just cutting hair" with lubrication (as opposed to dry cutting cardboard, and other more abrasive materials), the edge should still hold up well enough, no worse then a basic carbon blade i would think, as well as it would keep them easier to hone and strop compared to the higher alloyed steels... Not to mention their reputation for higher stain resistance then some of your fancier alloys would certainly be an added benefit for a "stainless SR", considering the amount of water and such it is constant contact with, and that's the point right?
Definitely curious which steels are the best suited for SR's, as I can't seem to find enough info regarding the topic to make an educated guess outside of my own basic and general knowledge and understanding of steels themselves.
"just cutting hair" that is the equivalent of cutting the same diameter of copper wire. It's not as easy as you make it out. The razor's edge has to do some more work than most people think.
The trade-offs in the stain resistant steels is usually toughness against hardness or vice versa. There is no reason you can't make a razor from 400 series. I would support Charlie's suggestion and use one of the CPM154 varieties. If your heart is set on Sandvik steels look in the 12C27 range for good edge holding and toughness when heat treated correctly.
I am now experimenting with 420hc for straight razors, mainly because it is very stain resistant, has a fine grain structure, and it behaves almost like carbon steel while sharpening. Basically any stainless will do with a fine grain structure and high hardness, but you should stay away from heavily abrasion resistant steels, mainly because they will be hard to hone. 440C, ATS34 and its varieties are good choices, because they are available in a lot of good thicknesses for us, sadly Sandvik steels (12c27, 13c26, etc.) don't go over 3-4mm in thickness as I have seen.
As an interested outsider, why not just use the stainless steels current manufacturers use unless they are not obtainable? They have been proven over time to work well. As an end user I personally don't care what type of stainless steel is used. So far all the vintage stainless steel razors I use, including an old George Ibberson Firth Stainless, shave very well.
Bob
Cryo HT is not that big of a problem, there are a lot of companies who can do it fairly cheap, even in small batches.
That's why I ask, it has seemed while in the knife world, labeling what type of steel is used in a blade is the status quo of a quality brand, because us knife enthusiasts want to know, and the mark of "stainless" without specifying is the mark if a generic and inferior blade, in the SR business, just "stainless" seems to be well enough, and there is no push for labeling a type of stainless as the quality brands are trusted to make a quality products, and that seems to be good enough for SR enthusiasts... Being both, the knife enthusiasts in me has the the SR enthusiasts in me to want to know...
And fwiw, I didn't mean "just cutting hair" as to imply its not an abrasive task, but when compared to an EDC knife its apples and oranges: ie. i'll never use my SR to baton fire wood, shave some kinling, break down boxes for the burn barrell, open a few packages, pry up a sida can tab, cut some old nylon rope, strip some wires, Still slice an apple, and then whittle a bit and carve a marshmellow stick or two to end the night, whereas that could be a typical day for any one of my Knives, my SR will "just cut hair", with a good lubricating lather to aid in said cutting. It's a " one trick pony" if you will, that really only has one real task to excel at day in and day out, as i'll never use them for anything other then shaving...
Obviously though if still takes its toll on the steel or we wouldn't have a need for quality strops hones to maintain said edges, but the requirements and criteria from one to the next do differ.
Well, I can understand you, I am a knife guy myself. Noone, never asked me what steel I use for my razors, just one person, who was a knife guy :)
Yes the key word is "trust' which has been proven valid since the 1920/30s in vintage stainless steel straight razors. I do understand where you are coming from. As more knife makers turn their hand to making straight razors it will become increasingly necessary for SR user to understand the different stainless steels better also. There really is no long standing proven track record in that area to "trust" on, at least for me.
Bob
I think labeling the steel became important as a transition in marketing in the knife world. The ahem, old guys, could have easily picked a piece of steel from a scrap pile and would have no idea what kind of steel it was. It would still make a fine knife, but the new guys could claim they knew the certain provenance for the steels they used. That left the old guys, with perfectly serviceable knives, lost at a knife show because there was something they could not be certain of in front of a questioning customer. All it takes is the whisper of a doubt to scotch a sale. But then, the cult of personality began to intrude and you didn't buy a knife whose profile you liked or it fit your hand well, as much as you bought a knife by a certain maker who had more cover profiles in the knife rags or went to bigger shows. Personally, I think it got a little out of hand.
By then, it wasn't enough to know it was simply stainless but it had to be ATS34 as different from 154CM (same recipe, different manufacture). And downhill from there to wunderstahl and unobtainium.
There are knifemakers who think razors should do all you list. I'm satisfied you're not one of them. ;)
In my opinion, it was more to do with sheer vastness of the knife market vs. The significantly smaller and specialized SR market, cut throat profiteers, and the sheer vastness of selections in new knife steel alloys (mist of which are not ideal for SR's anyhow)
Considering almost everyone from boyscouts to grandma have a pocket knife some where accessible to them, be it a $5 gas station blade, a key chain knife, a classic slup joint, or a $300+ tactical folder; (and that's not even including the kitchen Cutlery market) whereas hardly anyone possesses straight razors these days, the sheer vastness of that market opens the door to more shady level cut throat companies and corporation looking for a quick buck on the cheap with no regard to quality, (one common practice is rather then investing into a better product, instead buy a well known "brand" or "endorsement" to sell a lesser quality product under a reputable name, like BudK buying kissing crane, hardly the Kissing Cranes of yesteryear, or a $20 "bear grylls" survival Knives made in china w/ mystery steel, or the cheap "gun brand" knives; browning, remington, s&w, etc, who sell/sold the naming rights to whoever is paying, but the average consumer associates it with the gun brand unawares), the trust has been compromised, as well as also it created a larger "need" to stand out in said market, explaining why your knife is not only more exoensive, superior to "just stainless", but also better then the other guys; while "surgical stainless" at a budget price will convince most common folk that it's good enough quality and a bargain, (and for many an average daily user, it very well may be), the guys/companies who are making higher quality products HAVE to stand out, not to mention compete with each other, so s90v, m390, n690co, s35vn, 3v, 52100, all become selling points...
In the much (MUCH) smaller and much more specialized market of SR's, that trust has been established by the top companies; and there really isn't much if any of a real "casual consumer", like Joe Blow the eskimo who wants a cheap folding knife for his upcoming camping trip, and sees a $10 browning at walmart and thinks, " they make decent guns, that MUST BE a decent quality knife," he's also more then likely not thinking about buying a SR to start shaving with, but rather has a bag if disposable bics in his shopping cart; also there is not near as much competition in said market, and the consumers who are in the market, be it professional barbers or you or me who intend on putting a very sharp blade up against our face, typically do our due diligence in research and have a good idea of what brands to trust before making that first purchase, be it a new DOVO or a 100 year old W&B, (thanks largely in part to place like this site right here and the wealth of information provided), not many people wake up one day and decide to put a sharp object up against their face, and run down to the flea market for a $10 special without any research first...
Definitely a bunch of variables at play for sure, and definitely understand the need "not to" advertise since the need isn't there, but what can I say, the knife-guy in me still wants to know...
Fwiw also, ats34 and 154cm, while "almost" identical are actually slightly different recipes, as 154 has a small bit of vanadium and tungsten added to the matrix, 34 does not... Latrobe actually makes a steel identical to ats34, and carpenter's bd4 is closer to identical to 154cm. Ever so slight differences from maker to maker though, so like your grandma's old black Joe cake vs. My grandma's old black Joe cake, the same, but different...
One small nit pick. Browning, as far as I know never made anything themselves but had others make it for them with their brand name on it. Browning has had guns made for them by Husqvarna (Sweden), Fabrique Nationale (Belgium) and Miroku (Japan). Possibly others too. They are an importer with a rep of importing quality products though.
Bob
I don't mind a discussion. Just so we are both on the same page, show me the reference materials you are using, please.
Here's mine: http://www.crucible.com/PDFs//DataSh...54cmv12010.pdf It is of some interest that Crucible neglects to mention minor alloying elements like vanadium and tungsten.
Mike understands this more than most....
The bit about knowing what steel is used reflects the terrible early transition from carbon steel knives to
stainless knives --- my memory puts the interesting days back when Buck entered the knife market.
Buck made all the Arkansa hones almost worthless and this was long after the carborundum razor
hones all but vanish because of Blue Blades and safety razors.
So one important consideration is how the shaving razor is going to be sharpened.
Another consideration is heat and carbide growth. Carbides help an edge slice but slicing
is bad for razors. Correct heat treatment is a requirement for a razor and is different
from what a butcher or hunter blade maker needs.
Next is machinability and getting a correct shape.
I happen to like the extreme thin grind of many old razors.
It took me years to learn to hone them. The edge was too flexible
and my hand too heavy -- and yes I had less than the best hones.
The point here is hones, steel and grind enable the honemaster.
ATS34 is one of my favorite steels for a working knife but it is difficult to sharpen.
My kitchen knives with a VG10 core challenge all my hones when it is time
to sharpen them -- golly they are hard.
I suspect there is a maximum hardness for any steel before it tends to micro chip
and a minimum hardness below which it cannot hold an edge long enough to finish the save.
We have 100s of years of carbon steel experience... but mostly in secret... Modern tools are
improving edges and steel as we all know -- I know that Feather can hone a much finer edge
than I can hone an open blade. I dislike the Feather edge it is too darn sharp for the first perhaps
second shave.. My personal opinion with the Feather edge tells me that a well ground
razor honed correctly no matter what steel will do the job.
Now if someone will kindly send me a seven day set of stainless steel razors all
slightly different I would be happy to get back with a summary.
It might be magical thinking on my part, but I believe the cpm powdered (for lack of a better word) was nicer to hone and to work with.
Then again my Henckels Inox is sweet to shave with and hone.
Who knows? I have a lot more data points with carbon steels than stainless steels.
Charlie
I stand corrected; I was actually using the "zKnives" app for quite a while now for easy and convenient quick reference, as it is a great tool for quick reference and comparison of steels, but seeing the actual crucible data sheet on cpm-154cm, as well as cross referencing data sheets from other manufacturers & suppliers of 154cn, it appears none make any mention of either element, (though 2 showed trace amounts if nickle).
Thank you for correcting me on that, I am actually pretty discouraged now in zknives, which has been a great reference tool until now, wondering what other discrepencies might exist within their vast data base of steels, if they could get a rather common, well known steel that has been around for quite some time now, so far off. (It doesn't seem like much, but in the world of steel alloys, that really is a pretty sizeable discrepancy.
I actually sent Crucible an email to definitively clarify the discrepancy themselves so I can hopefully in turn contact the maker of the app to correct it, (if need be).
I saw the zKnives site (came up early on a search) and had to take a look cause he was new to me. It's a very busy place. I'd be interested in his source materials but could easily write it off as a typo.
There is so much other rich reputable data out there to look at, that one reference isn't enough to swing me away from what I thought was fairly correct memory. I really really wish Hitachi would publish simple data sheets like Crucible and so many others.
I'd say niolox. But really, carbon steel is still best and i am glad the steel fad never really caught on
Because most knife steel is not great for razors, are a bitch to work, and difficult to hone.
Also a choice for steel is always a tradeoff and a good knife steel is tough and strong and abrasion resistant. Qualities which are not required for razors and usually come at the price of not getting as fine and smooth an edge as carbon steel
Sorry, I should have said "current manufacturers of straight razors use" . I realize that knife steel needs and has different properties than steels needed for straight razor production. I mean they have been making stainless steel straight razors for at 80+ years now so it should not be all that mysterious. That is unless of course the makers have been keeping it an industrial secret for that length of time.
Bob
I see. In that case it is a matter of availability. Steels may no longer be available or only available in impractical amounts.
For example i think that O2 is the best carbon steel possible for razors. Several us professional knifemakers agree with me. But O2 is simply not made anymore in the us, which is why you don't see othets usong it. In the eu it is still available.
I once did a small scale comparison between O1, O2, and 52100 with local friends. No one of them could tell the razors were made of different steels, just me, so I guess we makers tend to think there is more difference between steels than in reality. But at least most of the end user can't feel the difference.
Putting that aside, I would say forged O2 was my favourite out of the three. Unfortunately it is only readily available for me in 3mm thickness.
As a maker, I can definitely tell the difference between those 3 during the process of making a knife.
O2 is much harder to anneal, but a nice steel to grind and dead easy to HT.
O1 is easier to anneal and a bit harder to HT.
52100 is horrible to grind post HT.
And I did some side by side hand sanding of O1 and 52100 kitchen knives. 52100 took at least twice as long at each step.
I also notice a difference when honing a razor made from those materials.
That said, I agree that as people who work with steel we probably make a lot of importance on differences that are probably not so big as we imagine them to be. However, I got a lot of feedback about the tool steel I use for my razors without telling in advance how I thought it would compare to O1, and often times I get the remark that is hones up easier and takes a smooth edge more easily, while at the same time having great edge retention.
If one follows Roman Landes and Paul Verhoeven's arguments then you need small carbides for edge retention at fine edge angles. This means low enough carbon to reduce carbide size and enough carbon to het hard enough not to just crumple at small edge angles. This means 420 hc and 440a... same-ish thing but during HT you HAVE to reduce retained austinite and do it very carefully...
Steels made for razors are aeb-l and 13c26n... 14c28 and the old 12c27 should be good too... their carbides are tiny and you can get 60+ Rc out of them with the same care as above 14c28n you readily get in thicker stock, aebl and 13c26n not so much... i would vote for aebl and 13c26 if you can get it thick enough... grind post ht and keep cool also you must stress relieve before ht as it will warp readily. Especially with some grinding before ht...
I have given up on 14c28n... i just cant get the heat treaters to do right by it. Once i have my own oven i might try again... if not done right it forms heay burrs and it folds the edge at rather high supposed hardness.
Where can you get thick 14c28n? Never found anything even near 4,5-6mm needed for razors.
I don't know about the others, but I have used niolox (SB-1) as razor steel. You can get it from Achim in Germany
Ok, this may be controversial, but I will yes and no.
Yes, if you want to max out on a specific hardness, it needs special HT. Special, as in more difficult than carbon steel.
However, I HT it like normal carbon steel, but a bit hotter. And I get consistent 59.5 HRC as verified by Mike Blue, with a very fine grain structure.
So I say no, if 59.5 is high enough for you.
And as you say, it can be bought in 6.5 mm which makes it ideal for making razors.
There's a few makers in America using it and here in south africa i can get what is sold as 14c28n in up 3.2 and 4mm... there are rumours about provenance... but some people get it to behave as it should...
P.s. bestar makes their own steel with niobium called be-cut... and that is available in single sheets and a variety of thicknesses. It is not the same as niolox, but knowing bestar it would be quite good. Niobium inhibits grain growth during overheating and i think might make for smaller carbides in the process. Not sure about this though.
I have found niolox to be EXTREMELY good at inhibiting grain growth during overheating.
I have broken several blades quenched at different temperatures just for the sake of establishing just how easy it is to heat treat.
Most people here tell me I need a vacuum oven or salt baths to HT niolox, but when I did some experiments, I found I could consistently HT it to 59.5 even when quenching at higher temperatures and long soak times.
In every blade I broke, the grain was so fine you couldn't see it
Becut has more niobium and less carbon... if you quench it faster i suspect it will get harder than bestar sheets... only reason for concern with all these are retained austinite after overheating and no subzero quenching. That messes with fine edge stability. I would sub zero even if i austinized at lower temps...
Well, crucible never returned my email, but the maker behind zKnives did, and he sourced Niagra Specialty Metals, (a cpm distributer) as his source, as they state a 0.4% "Max" of both elements in 154cm (cpm or other).
Niagara Specialty Metals: Knife Steels
He also states that he will update the app to reflect that it is a "Max" threshold, not necessarily a requirement. He also noted that when he inquired about it they told him it was unintentional trace amounts present, but some knife makers believe it is intentionally left out of the details because it makes the steel harder to machine.
Fwiw.
0.4% is actually quite a lot. 0.4% of tungsten and vanadium each, would have a noticeable impact on the abrasion resistance of the steel when machineing it.
That's what I said, considering the alloy elements in different steel often vary in fractions of percentages, adding 0.4% of 2 different elements vs. Zero all but makes a completely different alloy...
My guess would be, as an official Crucible distributer, that Niagra Specialty has their own spectrometer, and detected the elements present at least in certain batches (leading to the "0.4% Max" designation), before posting it on their website in contrast to Crucible's own posted official data sheets? Idk for certain, but just weird for such a discrepancy...