I have thought the same and wish you lived closer.......
Probably yes on the bulk but it has to be "in the long run." ;)
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Seems to me, Tim likely has enough leftovers to do his forge 3 times again.
Could be wrong.
Buying a sack of this and a bundle of that is how it goes, I think?
Still, shipping the stuff takes a bite out of crime.
You are right and if you were able to drive or walk over I would give you some! Buy local because the shipping would suck.
I bought a similar brand to Satinite or how ever you spell it and I had to get a gallon......
I used less than a cup! :rofl2:
Tim
It makes me crazy looking at prices, pretty much resigned myself to buying a bunch as buying what I think I currently need isn’t terribly less expensive than buying bulk. I think worst case scenario if I get way too much I could put it on CL, with that being said the welder we have on the job right now does some forging, I’ll talk to him maybe he has some stuff laying around he doesn’t need or want.
Hey Tim, so with the refractory cement I need enough on the wool to just cover it? What’s the best consistency to apply it?
I had typed out a nice long reply and lost it.
Upon recommendation by Howard Clark, I picked up an Atlas Mini Forge. I already had a thermocouple. It is a handy little forge, you can forge weld with it, forge simple steels, and can heat treat with it.
Just something to consider.
I have mostly got my ceramic wool and cement from other smiths who bought a whole box or sack full.
I have bought some also,
HarbisonWalker has a center in Dallas
and online from
High Temperature Tools & Refractory | Welcome
I have always put the cement on pretty wet when coating ceramic wool, Like thick ketchup but not as thick as peanut butter.
I was in my local antique/junk store and ran across a nice anvil. It didn't have a weight shown but it is between 29 and 30 inches overall length. Just for grins, picked up one of the hammers off the table behind the anvil and struck the anvil lightly and got a nice ring.
Attachment 303643
After checking the price and picking myself up off the floor, I went home and looked on the internet for anvils. Maybe the price was not as out of line as I thought.
Now a question. While looking in hyperspace a saw several anvils that were cast iron. I would have thought cast iron was not suitable for an anvil. Am I all wet?
Hey John, this what you're looking for?
Charlie already gave a good answer. For lack of better terms you more or less thickly paint/smear it on.
The types I have used come with a layer of what seems like oil if it isn't on the top and when you get done level it out and make sure the oil covers it when stored. That will make it last longer when stored.
Pretty much, but I too have some sticker shock while looking at prices. I was thinking a 60# anvil would be awesome but will probably just go with a post anvil as the price is much more friendly.
As far as cast goes all the reviews I’ve read and reports I’ve seen have pretty much stated to run away. The only cast I’ve heard of being somewhat desirable will have a hardened piece welded to the top of the anvil for a striking surface.
I think for now just getting set up for heat treating and stock removal is stretching it financially for me. If I do find a deal on an anvil though I’ll probably pick it up. Best price I’ve seen for a local vintage anvil has been about $15 a pound. For that kind of money it seems like new would be the way to go plus I won’t need to do any resurfacing or restoration.
I need to try and find something local it would appear. The shipping is what’s killing me, the cost is equal to or greater than the material I need, though this may be the price I have to pay to play.
Edit: turns out there’s a HarbisonWalker down the street from my house! Need to see if they’ll sell to the public.
Gee....That Atlas Mini-forge Scott mentioned looks pretty nice.
Reviews and youtubes look good as well.
Turn-key!
But where is the fun in buying one?:D
How low will the temp go? If I can get down to 1400 looks like a winner. If I can’t really control the heat and Harbingerwalker will sell to the public here I’ll probably just diy it. The cost of materials plus shipping to build one would easily pay for an Atlas with a thermocouple.
Damn you guys, I was pleasantly content before I went to Texas.
You will want a thermocouple no matter what. Build it, buy it...choice is yours. In my Atlas, I heat treat in a pipe...I recommend this for any gas forge unless its a drum like Charlie has. You can keep the temps plenty constant in the Atlas. I have made (mostly stock removal) around 25 razors and over 100 knives doing the heat treat in that lil forge.
That all sounds good to me, Scott.
Do you feel limited at all with the chamber diameter? Looking at their website they state that it’s 2.5”.
Have you forged out that cable Damascus yet? I’m interested on how it turned out.
So HD had ceramic wool, had to order it but the shipping was free. Rated to 2300f and 8#. Comes in 1”x24” and 1x48”, I went with the 1”x24”x25’ roll.
My cousin ended up having a pre OPD 20# propane tank he’s gonna give me. And I found a forge today behind my kids daycare. The length has me a little concerned, not sure about burner placement besides trying to get it lined up with the tangent of the interior. Maybe put the burner towards the back with a slight angle towards the front to promote a more even heat?
Attachment 303851
Tank is 6 1/2” in diameter and will probably finish out at 14”-15” after cutting the ends off. Should be really good for knives at that length.
Be sure and provide progress reports with pictures. I, for one, am very interested.
Will do, Bart.
Maybe start a new thread on the build, John?
I was going to just throw it in this thread, but I think you’re right about a new thread. I’ll just link back to this one.
How thick of insulation do you plan on having? The inside final diameter is going to be small to me.
Satanite comes in powdered form to be with water. If you mix too much you can just let the remainder dry and use it next time. It doesn't really set until it is fired. I just went ahead and bought a 50 lb bag of it. It makes good trading fodder for other forge supplies.
I’m going to go with kast o lite and then coat that with some itc 100 knock off (Metrikote IR reflective) that I found, for more efficiency, at least for the small forge, may be too difficult to keep the temp down for the larger heat treating forge if it’s as efficient as I’ve been reading.
Just to clarify, for the burners, I don’t need a flare on exhaust side because the forge will give me the same effect?
Another topic, but it seems it will be a smaller forge for knives and razors.
Forgive me, but looking at the Mini-forge linked-to above, it has a small, half-moon intake at the bottom on the back. Makes me think.
Why cut the whole back out of your cylinder?
Might be beneficial to do something of the sort and coat the back as well?
A guy in our club was saying that he buys Zirconium...something and an inexpensive clay from pottery supply places that works in place of the itc 100 at much lower cost. The cast-o -lite is good, but the forge will take longer to heat up. If you're cycling a bunch of steel through the forge the extra thermal mass of the refractory is a good thing. For shorter forge sessions it's not as good. The forge cantake the place of the flare.
Tom:
I’m going to leave the back on the helium bottle, at 14” of useable depth it’s plenty deep for any current plans I have. I believe the back of Charlie’s and Tim’s forges were cut to allow for longer stock but covered up when we were using them for better efficiency.
Victor:
The reflective coating I’m using is about a 1/4 the cost of itc 100
The kast o lite is going over 1” ceramic insulation. I’m thinking of beefing up the floor a little but otherwise just going to plaster the insulation with around a 1/2” or 3/4” thickness. I may try to cast it, haven’t decided yet, either way I don’t want to make something that’s going to take forever to heat up so if that sounds like too much casting lmk.
Sounds OK.
Well ended up welding the burner to the body, hope that isn’t a no-no.
Attachment 304190
No, I think that is one of the main advantages of having a steel shell.
Edit; Thinking about it for a second, I guess most people weld in a receiver tube that holds the burner. That way the burner can be easily removed. Once every thing is working there is little reason to pull the burner though. I have cleaned the jet on mine a couple of times. There is a lot of crap in commercial propane. Most designs have pretty easy access to the jet without removing the burner.
I like the idea of welding a coupling to the body and using that to hold the burner so you are able to remove or adjust the burner.
The late John White had a small version of the Don Fogg style drum HT forge. It would hold temperature to within a few degrees. Pretty amazing. But, he has a small venturi burner and a pretty accurate thermocouple setup so it wa a big more purpose built than say the old one brick forge. Point being that you can do it, but make sure that you do it the best that you can afford. I used to HT with a black iron muffle pipe in my Chile Forge with the smaller 1/2 burner. It worked pretty well, but I still ended up buying an oven.
It dawned on me that I should of welded a tube on with a spider chuck after the fact, I’ll do that on the small forge for more adjustment. I used a .03 mig tip which is adjustable in and out, need to make some chokes still though.
I did end up purchasing a thermocouple, wasn’t the most expensive but wasn’t the cheapest either. I figure it’s probably way better than what evenheat or paragon use in their hobby setups. As I’m only planning on using W2, 1095, and possibly O2 I don’t have any needs for an elaborate heat treating program that would require an oven.
spider chuck
My new words for the day.
I had a buddy in High School....Spider Chuck!
Well got her going today, held temp just fine, but the burner is not working well or correctly. The flame is burning when it hits the front of the oven and not when it comes out of the burner nozzle. The mig tip isn’t entering the tube at the center off about an 1/8”, definitely not helping things but not sure if that’s the only reason, I guess I need to try some different sizes too. I tried adjusting the tip fore and aft but that had little effect. At really low pressure it burns right at the end of the burner. I also played with some different choke settings with no difference in where the burn was occurring.
Attachment 304493
With the pressure up, combustion is happening at the front under the muffle:
Attachment 304494
With the pressure turned way down, couldn’t hold temp, losing about a degree every 15 seconds at around 1475.
Attachment 304495
I cannot tell where the burner goes in?
First picture, the black pipe at the bottom on the left. The one above it is for the thermocouple.
Thought so....Should it not come in from the back top-middle side at a tiny angle toward the front?
Makes the heat go round and round?