Shoulderless grinds -- tips and tricks?

My shoulderless grinds could use some improvement. They're OK as long as I keep them fairly short, but I really like the look of some of the vintage blades where the grind extends almost all the way to the pivot hole. I can't seem to figure out a technique that will allow me to achieve that shape.

To date I've been extending the belt out over the edge of the wheel by maybe 3/8" and using that to get the gradual taper toward the bottom of the tang. This doesn't work so well once I extend the hollow more than 3/8" into the tang.

Also, the natural slant of the hollow in the tang encourages the main part of the blade to want to tilt into the wheel, which is always a major disaster. :aargh:

Any fellow steel-dust eaters want to take a stab at describing how you approach shoulderless grinds? :)

Josh

Josh, shoulderless grinds are far easier than shouldered grinds, but you're right: you do have to prevent the blade turning into the wheel, or you're going to wind up gouging the blade. Just use light cuts and keep the blade roughly square with the wheel. Honestly, it's easier if you start shoulders, round them off, and proceed from there. When you've got enough hollow in the blade, it's harder for it to hit the wheel. Just remember to not turn the tang into the wheel. It's almost automatic.

I was hoping you'd chime in, Joe. :) I actually have an easier time with shouldered grinds, except for that :cen little flat facet that you have to do near the heel of the blade. Total PITA.

Do you do the tang portion of the shoulderless grind as a part of each pass on the wheel, or do you do it separately and then blend it into the grind on the blade?

Also, do you only make contact with the edge of the wheel while you're working out on the tang?

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

Josh, shoulderless grinds are far easier than shouldered grinds, but you're right: you do have to prevent the blade turning into the wheel, or you're going to wind up gouging the blade. Just use light cuts and keep the blade roughly square with the wheel. Honestly, it's easier if you start shoulders, round them off, and proceed from there. When you've got enough hollow in the blade, it's harder for it to hit the wheel. Just remember to not turn the tang into the wheel. It's almost automatic.

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Josh, initially I may work on the tang separately, just to hog off what I want to remove, but by the end, the tang portion becomes an extension of the grinding pass. As to the comment I made about shoulderless being easier than shouldered grinds, that sounded a bit condescending. What I should have said is that for me, it's tougher to get crisp, even shoulders than the shoulderless. Once you get the hang of it, the shoulderless is a little more forgiving, in that you can true it up easier. Once you go past a certain point with the shoulders, the razor just looks funny. :D

Josh, are you tapering the tang before or after grinding the hollow?

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Josh, are you tapering the tang before or after grinding the hollow?

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I usually grind the hollow first. Does it make a difference?

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

I usually grind the hollow first. Does it make a difference?

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Yes, it does (at least for me). Tapering the tang first allows the hollow portion to taper off, without an abrupt stop. Doing it after, after a bit of thought, should work as well, but to my way of doing things, it just works a bit easier with a tang you've already tapered.

I finally have time to respond....

First off, you are a better grinder than I am.... But I hope to catch up soon!:)

I have been having the same problems. The latest method I have used is to hollow grind the blade and the tang but only to the pivot pin hole before tapering the tang. The result was that as I tapered the tang the hollow grind on the tang got shorter & shorter. It was impossible to predict where on the tang it would end.
My next attempts will be to leave the tang as a rough unshaped rectangular extension off the blade, extend the hollow grind for the full length of the block tang, then shape the tang, then taper the tang last. Then I will see where the hollow grind ends on the tang.
Just an idea...it will take practice.

The one thing that keeps me from getting down on myself is that the old timers used a drop hammer and dies to achieve the shapes and most of the hollows of the razors. Their hollow grinding was minimal.

Thanks, Randy. I agree about the pre-stamped blade shapes. The tools and processes we're using don't bear much resemblance to how razors were manufactured in the past. I suspect the dual-wheeled, water-cooled stone grinders they used were helpful in terms of keeping things even, too. :)

I like your suggestion about extending the grind all the way down the tang, then grinding part of it off. I think the part of the grind that extends into the tang will still need to be shallower than the blade, though, and that's what's tripping me up.

When you're working this part of the grind, do you grind tang to toe in an even pass, or do you start somewhere else and work your way to the tang...?

If you grind tang to toe, you almost have to start with just the outer edge of the wheel making contact with the hollow in the tang, and the rest of the blade 1/4" or so away from the wheel, then move the blade gently into the wheel as you hit the hollow in the blade. This is really hard to do evenly, and the edge of the wheel wants to slip and gouge the tang without any warning... :gaah:

I think I'll cut some wood blanks and try some different stuff this weekend.

Josh

LOL,... If I had this all figured out then I would not be trying something new next!:D
In terms of control the obvious factor is grinder speed, you know this, but the next variable would be wheel width and crowning of the wheel.
I finally found my 2" drive wheel so that will allow me to slow way down , 1/2 the speed, from the current 4" drive wheel.
Where do I start when grinding?, next I will try starting in the middle of the blade and working out to both ends.

This eye/hand coordination, even pressure, keep the blade level, square to the wheel face thru the entire movement, on both sides, evenly, is tough! :)

Randy, I tried a modified version of your suggestion this evening, and it worked really well. I left the tang square and basically ground a sharp "shoulder" all the way out by the pivot hole. Then I tapered the tang--and presto, best shoulderless grind I've done yet. It looked pretty bad until I started tapering the tang, and at one point I thought I might have ruined the blank. But it ended up being a very painless and easy method.

I realized in the process that I have been totally misunderstanding what a shoulderless grind actually does. It's actually a full extension of the grind rather than the result of using less pressure to blend the grind into the tang. The taper of the tang is what makes this extended portion of the grind appear to curve downward to meet the bottom edge of the tang. To get each pass going correctly, I found that I just needed to move the heel in about 3/4" from the edge of the wheel, then concentrate my attention on making contact properly with the heel of the blade. The part out on the tang took care of itself when I did this right.

I have often left my tangs less tapered than is typical on vintage razors, so I never realized that the taper is what makes the shoulder drop off. Huh. :)

Thanks for the tips, guys.

Josh

Thats good to hear, thanks for posting this.:beer1:
P.S. Thanks to Joe Chandler for telling me that a shoulderless grind is simply a continuation of the blade grind. I discovered that the tapering of the tang is what determined where the grind ended when I first ground on a untapered tang.

That makes two greatful souls, Joe. :)

I live to serve :beer1: :bow: :D

These are two little 6/8 blanks that I ground last night and this evening. The Shoulderless Grind Trick is working really well--these are almost perfectly even.

One thing I'm noticing is that you almost have to take the initial grind most of the way to the pivot hole. Otherwise you have to grind the tang really stinkin' thin in order to get rid of the shoulder where you stopped on the tang.

These are a little rough--still need some pre-heat treating refinement. I'm getting some anti-scaling compound for my oven that ought to let me do almost all of my polishing before heat treatment. :beer1:

Looking good!:)

Thanks for all your remarks, gentlemen. I'm getting ready to run steel across my new Bader BIII for the first time, and I've always wanted to make shoulderless blades. I find shoulders annoying, both aesthetically, and when you need to grind nicks out of an old blade. As soon as the blade narrows to the point the hone starts hitting the shoulder, you get hone damage, unsightly marring of the razor, and a piece of uneven cutting edge at the heel.

My favorite profiles are the massive shoulderless Wade & Butcher semi-wedges.

I'm not at the point of making blades yet but would love to someday. And I'm glad to see others who like shoulderless blades. I don't understand why anyone would want the shoulders in the first place.

As always, thank you gentlemen, for your words of wisdom.:lurk::lurk: