Thread: Shoulderless grinds -- tips and tricks?

My shoulderless grinds could use some improvement. They're OK as long as I keep them fairly short, but I really like the look of some of the vintage blades where the grind extends almost all the way to the pivot hole. I can't seem to figure out a technique that will allow me to achieve that shape.

To date I've been extending the belt out over the edge of the wheel by maybe 3/8" and using that to get the gradual taper toward the bottom of the tang. This doesn't work so well once I extend the hollow more than 3/8" into the tang.

Also, the natural slant of the hollow in the tang encourages the main part of the blade to want to tilt into the wheel, which is always a major disaster.

Any fellow steel-dust eaters want to take a stab at describing how you approach shoulderless grinds?

Josh

Josh, shoulderless grinds are far easier than shouldered grinds, but you're right: you do have to prevent the blade turning into the wheel, or you're going to wind up gouging the blade. Just use light cuts and keep the blade roughly square with the wheel. Honestly, it's easier if you start shoulders, round them off, and proceed from there. When you've got enough hollow in the blade, it's harder for it to hit the wheel. Just remember to not turn the tang into the wheel. It's almost automatic.

I was hoping you'd chime in, Joe. I actually have an easier time with shouldered grinds, except for that little flat facet that you have to do near the heel of the blade. Total PITA.

Do you do the tang portion of the shoulderless grind as a part of each pass on the wheel, or do you do it separately and then blend it into the grind on the blade?

Also, do you only make contact with the edge of the wheel while you're working out on the tang?

Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

Josh, shoulderless grinds are far easier than shouldered grinds, but you're right: you do have to prevent the blade turning into the wheel, or you're going to wind up gouging the blade. Just use light cuts and keep the blade roughly square with the wheel. Honestly, it's easier if you start shoulders, round them off, and proceed from there. When you've got enough hollow in the blade, it's harder for it to hit the wheel. Just remember to not turn the tang into the wheel. It's almost automatic.

Josh, initially I may work on the tang separately, just to hog off what I want to remove, but by the end, the tang portion becomes an extension of the grinding pass. As to the comment I made about shoulderless being easier than shouldered grinds, that sounded a bit condescending. What I should have said is that for me, it's tougher to get crisp, even shoulders than the shoulderless. Once you get the hang of it, the shoulderless is a little more forgiving, in that you can true it up easier. Once you go past a certain point with the shoulders, the razor just looks funny.

Josh, are you tapering the tang before or after grinding the hollow?

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Josh, are you tapering the tang before or after grinding the hollow?

I usually grind the hollow first. Does it make a difference?

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

I usually grind the hollow first. Does it make a difference?

Yes, it does (at least for me). Tapering the tang first allows the hollow portion to taper off, without an abrupt stop. Doing it after, after a bit of thought, should work as well, but to my way of doing things, it just works a bit easier with a tang you've already tapered.

I finally have time to respond....

First off, you are a better grinder than I am.... But I hope to catch up soon!

I have been having the same problems. The latest method I have used is to hollow grind the blade and the tang but only to the pivot pin hole before tapering the tang. The result was that as I tapered the tang the hollow grind on the tang got shorter & shorter. It was impossible to predict where on the tang it would end.
My next attempts will be to leave the tang as a rough unshaped rectangular extension off the blade, extend the hollow grind for the full length of the block tang, then shape the tang, then taper the tang last. Then I will see where the hollow grind ends on the tang.
Just an idea...it will take practice.

The one thing that keeps me from getting down on myself is that the old timers used a drop hammer and dies to achieve the shapes and most of the hollows of the razors. Their hollow grinding was minimal.

Thanks, Randy. I agree about the pre-stamped blade shapes. The tools and processes we're using don't bear much resemblance to how razors were manufactured in the past. I suspect the dual-wheeled, water-cooled stone grinders they used were helpful in terms of keeping things even, too.

I like your suggestion about extending the grind all the way down the tang, then grinding part of it off. I think the part of the grind that extends into the tang will still need to be shallower than the blade, though, and that's what's tripping me up.

When you're working this part of the grind, do you grind tang to toe in an even pass, or do you start somewhere else and work your way to the tang...?

If you grind tang to toe, you almost have to start with just the outer edge of the wheel making contact with the hollow in the tang, and the rest of the blade 1/4" or so away from the wheel, then move the blade gently into the wheel as you hit the hollow in the blade. This is really hard to do evenly, and the edge of the wheel wants to slip and gouge the tang without any warning...

I think I'll cut some wood blanks and try some different stuff this weekend.

Josh

LOL,... If I had this all figured out then I would not be trying something new next!
In terms of control the obvious factor is grinder speed, you know this, but the next variable would be wheel width and crowning of the wheel.
I finally found my 2" drive wheel so that will allow me to slow way down , 1/2 the speed, from the current 4" drive wheel.
Where do I start when grinding?, next I will try starting in the middle of the blade and working out to both ends.

This eye/hand coordination, even pressure, keep the blade level, square to the wheel face thru the entire movement, on both sides, evenly, is tough!