Hi,
Is there anyone capable of forging straight razor?
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Hi,
Is there anyone capable of forging straight razor?
There are several custom makers here if you take a look around the forums. Off the top of my head, Robert Williams, Alex Jaques, Buddel, Josh Earl and Butch Harner to name but a few of them.
There are also other makers out there who are not members on this site like Mastro Livi and Tim Zowada.
The best thing to do is to have look around the Customs... forum and have a look at the razors that have been made.
why must it be forged :)
there are a few guys that make razors so you ll see them on here some place (BTW i think Tim is a member if not i know he looks in now and then anyhow)
Robert Williams of course, Mastro Livi, Tim Zowada, Josh Earl. The question of whether a forged blade is "better" than stock removal is one that has been debated ad nauseum by knife guys since I started reading about the topic forty years ago. I find the romance of a guy with a hammer forging a billet on an anvil irresistible. OTOH, for the end user I don't think it makes any difference given proper heat treating and tempering whether the blade is forged or ground from bar stock. YMMV for sure. :)
hitting hot steel with a hammer sure is fun :)
hitting anything with a hammer is fun :)
Charlie
edit: except my thumb
Yes, there's something really neat about sticking a piece of steel into the bowels of hell, pulling it out and then beating it into submission. I'm still undecided about whether it produces a better blade than stock removal, but the leather apron, metal tongs, anvil and hammer are satisfying tools to use in the birth of a blade.
Hammers... steel... hellfire... what's not to love?
Can I get help on what tools and how much investment needed to try building a razor?
Wayne Goddard's $50 Knife Shop is a great intro into knife making. There are lots of different ways to get the job done you can spend a lo, or get by with little. It just depends on how you want to go about it.
Charlie
stop no no no no
the HT info in that book is not even close to good to go
we are talkign about the most extreme form of knife the HT is no place to (for lack of better terms half ass)
no then if you get it to learn how to shape knives then sure but they are knives not razors (i have had ppl in the shop to learn and i had to unteach soo much from that dam book )
bladeforums.com has lots of geat info in the shoptalk
I'd like to know specifically where the heat treatment stuff in Wayne's book is wrong for a beginner using very simple tooling. I think ferroburak was asking for that kind of help.
I'm not going to argue about how important heat treatment is, but if you've found some printed error, I would think that Wayne deserves a chance to know that, and the publisher, as well as the rest of us. Rather than just hanging here waiting and not knowing what the problems are because of a hard undeveloped claim, we should be working on correcting errors, eh?
You've got all the time in the world to build your case. I'm going out to the shop and re-read those chapters myself, and check my margin notes. And I don't want to go to some other forum to dig up answers, neither should anyone else have to. Butch you made the claim here, make a better case for your arguments here, please.
if you think that lawnmower blades quenched in his goop is good info then go right ahead
to see him tell new ppl that thay can use scrap steel to make a knife when know knife steel is under 5 bucks a Lb
the goop that is made of tranny oil bacon fat and orther stuff that will go ranside
now that said they way he teaches how to build tools and some of the tricks is good info
i jsut think that the 50$ shop cant be done in this day in age to make even more then a mildly good knife let alone a razor
hell safety glasses and a ressporator will run you near 50$ let alone making any tools
For me it was a great book. It peaked my curiosity and made me want to learn more. It was an introduction blade-smithing.
Wayne Goddard's attitude toward the craft was the most important thing I took away from this book.
Did the book show me how to make a razor? No, but it got me started down that path.
Charlie
and to add
wheni started i knew what it ment to not have much $$
i picked up a 4x36 belt grinder new and made a few knives from files
then picked up some known steel and made 3 or 4 blades and had then heat treated by the local tool and die maker
i had to barrow a drill press and the only other tool i had was my dremmel
the knives were crude but they worked well (my sister still used one most every day )
i kept saving as i made stuff and made my first 2 big buys a evenheat kiln and a used LN2 dewer
it took me more then a year then to buy any other toools but i was loving what i was doing
My first razors were made with a 4x36 belt grinder a wet grinding wheel & drill press. See this link: http://straightrazorpalace.com/forge...ake-razor.html
I have two other blades on their way back from being heat treated from a member in this forum. What I am getting at is that you can get by on the basics & an open mind. You have had several real sharp guys already post on your thread. Ask questions, plan your work, work your plan. If I can do it, anyone can....
Sorry, for a second there reading that I thought we'd started talking about marriage. :rofl2:
you guys crack me up, thanks.
I have thought many times about getting into making edged items, knives, axes, maybe a razor. I have a drill press, 2x72 belt grinder, and plenty of other shop stuff and am never adverse to adding things to the mix, my problem is that I haven't taken the time to find out how for instance you get the grind the same on both sides of the blade (I'm sure my "eyeball" method I use for sharpening my axes on the grinder isn't proper). also setting the bevel right when using a belt. I thought a knife maker told me once he had something he could clamp on the blade that would keep it at the angle he wanted, but damned if I know what it is called or have been able to find one.
personally I'd love to do the stock removal method to make a few hunting knives for me and buddies. some kitchen knives maybe, considering how much all mine cost anyways I might as well do a couple myself, get them exactly how I like. for instance, why must I have 6,8,10 and 12" chef's knives? why can't they be 7,9,11? hmmm....?! :D
In seriousness, if somebody could point me in the right direction (shaping I'm comfortable with, I think that can't be the worst part) I might even be able to get my uncle when he gets back (it'd be a fall/winter project anyways, I'm completely booked with 50-80 hr weeks through July) to split cost with me of things I need (i.e. those specialized grinder thingies you guys have with the weird little wheels, the heat treat furnace if it's better than sending them off).
This is the one I'd like to make a copy/version of (I'd change the handle some) Manton Knife. I'd do a regular carbon steel and would like to do one of those vinegar or vinegar/bleach etches.
Red
sometimes I wonder if I'm a thread killer, I post and then there's no activity? what gives guys?
That Manton knife just happens to be one challenging grind. 2 concave grinds on each side? Holy Moly Rocky! I have seen it done freehand by a friend of mine, Doc Molenaar, but it is far from easy.
Just start grinding, ya gotta begin somewhere!:)
Personally, I send stuff off. I'm learning so dang much just trying to get the grind the same on both sides, what works & what doesn't, and so on. Learning how to heat treat steel is a whole other arena that it would take experience & time to learn. Even then, I recently broke a razor that I tried to "straighten". It had a little bit of a warp to it after heat treat and I learned that you can't bend 1095 after it's been thoroughly heat treated. You can however, snap 1095... There went probably 10-12 hours down the tube, but I did learn something from it. A few choice words were said, but life did go on.
Red: I found six or seven members of the Knifemaker's Guild in California. Most KMG members are good about sharing information. Perhaps a visit to one of their shops would be helpful. You could get an idea of tooling, perhaps even some pointers to help get you started, and you'd have someone you could visit when problems arose. Having a physical shop handy occupied by someone with experience, really helps smooth out the learning curve. Much more so than the internet.
Can forgings be made of something other than Stainless?
All steels are forged at some point. I would interpret your desire as wanting to forge one by hand or with smaller-than-industrial-scale shop tooling. It's that point where forging carbon steels is much easier (more forgiving) with simple equipment.
If you want to forge a stain resistant steel, you have to be careful with temperatures as they have a narrower range where forging will be successful or the steel will fail, and some like the near-stainless D2 will fight you the whole way even when the eye says it should be ready to hit with a hammer.
But, with the right equipment and care taken to stay within the limits of the particular steel, it can be done. I would not recommend it for a beginner. If you're really determined however, try 12C27 or AEB-L. They are more forgiving than most of the others.
Like Butch said, finish is very important, even for stain resistant steels. Eliminating a point for oxygen to interact with the iron is the name of the game. Passivating will help those chrome steels a lot and that is another process to learn.
I just read a short treatise on passivating stainless steels and now my head hurts as if it were that between the hammer and anvil.
:beer2:
Well, I do have smaller-than-industrial-tooling... I have just about every tool needed for shaping sheet metal, welding, etc. Though I don't have a red and green wrench on hand, I do I have access to one. Besides hammers, an anvil, and a heating device, what would I need as far as tools? I'm anxious to know what to tell my wife I'm about to buy next:rofl2: My neighbors have been tolerant of my sheet metal hammering thus far, I think I should be able to form something... hopefully!
Tongs to hold the hot steel. Then patience and a strong hammer arm. It is stiff even at the right color you think you should be at for heat. It won't take much heat beyond the correct forging range or it will come apart when you forge it. Chromium will cause rapid grain growth when overheated. It won't forge very well below an orange color where you could still get a lot of work done on a carbon steel.
What do you use to heat the steel? I saw ovens you put steel into, but I'm not sure I have room. Would an Oxy-Acetelene torch do the trick, or do I need more? Do I need an anvil, or would a 5/16 plate steel surface do the trick?
I appreciate all the info... this is something I've wanted to get into for a while now... I just always thought there was more to it. I think it is great that people can do this in there garage or small shop area!
To heat the steel you have 3 choices
1. coal/charcoal forge ( make your own)
2. propane forge ( make your own)
3. Electric kiln, $800+
You need to anneal the steel to drill/file/grind it and then heat treat and temper. A torch can be used but you better know what your doing.
Forget the torch idea if your serious.
To grind the steel a lot of us use a 2 x 72 belt grinder. Look up Bader grinder, KMG grinder, No weld grinder.
Hope this helps,:)
What Randy said. And, there is more to it. A lot more. And, it depends. You'll like hear this again.
Charcoal is one of the simplest fuels and has been around the longest. It's also a renewable fuel where the rest require an industry to support. But coal and charcoal can get hot enough to burn steel (as well as help make steel) so you have to learn how to run the fire properly.
An LP fire is more controllable (although a solid fuel fire is too, they both depend on experience), cleaner and leaves a space for you to see the steel warming up. But you can overcome this by burying a pipe in the solid fuel fire.
Compared to LP, acetylene is expensive fuel and requires considerable fiddling as a forging source. Start the torch, shut it off (wasting $$$), beat around a little before it cools down too much (which happens just as soon as you remove it from the heat) and repeat. A small LP forge can run for days off a barbecue 20 lb bottle and only requires ambient air to run, not oxygen, or an account with a welding gas shop. But, you could set up a small firebrick forge and the acetylene will work as a heat source.
If all I had was 5/16 plate, it would work, but bigger stouter heavier will be better. If you bench mount it, you will likely beat the bench to pieces, eventually. But it could work in the meantime. At least until you decide how bad this addiction to steel is going to get...;)
A simple metal hammer is all that is needed, but even a cheap cast machinist's hammer is better than a carpenter's claw hammer, and you get a peen to do something to the steel a claw hammer cannot. A short chunk of old railroad rail makes a fine (better than plate anyway) anvil if that's all you had.
I've made numerous simple anvils for cutlery out of blocks of square scrap steel. I really nice size is 4 inches by 4 inches square surface and enough length to bury in a wooden base to bring things up to a decent height to work on. Some old landscape timbers rabbeted to hold the steel, some equalizing white wood glue and eight landscaping screws to pull it all into a tight relationship and you're off and running with a dedicated anvil for way less money per pound than what you'd pay for an antique anvil from a vendor who knows what a collector will pay in the end. You're not going to need a horn for making razors, so why pay for that hanging around to catch your jewels on (:eek:), but the round surface will help with making tangs. You could still do that with tooling/dies made from more scrap though.
There have been millions of blades made worldwide and throughout time, without all the most ideal shop equipment, and long before all the ideal processes were developed, that any group of smiths or makers could name. All the fancy modern stuff is not needed to make a decent blade. Start simple and get good at making with simple equipment and you'll be much better off in the end.
See, it depends...
I've hinted at the addictive potential. Blacksmithing is a dangerous avocation. You're going to get burned in more ways than I remember. Buying all the tools in the world and making the finest razors on the planet will not survive some kinds of getting hurt. No to mention the look you'll get from your wife and her mother. Oh, yeah, about SWMBO, Do Not raid the milk/rent money for this. All sorts of problems follow that.
Well if holding up the computer from my wife and daughter for 3.5 hours looking at knife/razor making sites last night is any indication of the things to come...:D I know for a fact I'm going to have more questions no matter what, but this right hear was a very useful primer, thanks. I'm going to look and see how to make a small brick forge running on LP, figure on where to get the carbon steel, and most importantly see how other people do this. This looks like a lot of fun can't wait to get started... now, just how am I gonna convince my wife that a firebrick forge would make a better backyard decoration than her Blueberry bush???:idea:
Buy more firebrick than you need for a forge. Build her a wood-fired pizza/baking oven in the back yard. Use the leftover firebrick to build a forge. I mean, you can't just throw away expensive bricks! She'll need a new knife for cutting up stuff she's baking. Along the way, you'll have to experiment with other blade shapes...:)
There are aspects of thermal cycling I don't fully understand and steel choice when forging. I think you can ruin some steels if they get them to hot????
For my stage of development stock removal would on the face of it seem to aleviate many of these considerations, decarb can also be a pain so extra material needs to be left on to get past this soft skin.
Even stock removal you have to watch excess heat, especially for air hardening steels. Chime in you pro's if I'm not exactly right on some aspects