Recycled steel

Hi all! :)

I am working on my forging equipment, I only need a forge and I will have everything in place. So I am looking for some steel I can forge, and I thought it would be a good idea to buy some steel from the scrapyard in the beginning. I really like the idea of recycling old materials, it would be a shame to buy it new, and it is also hard to find good steel around.

I already bought some ball bearings and old files, I read a lot of these, and they should make good razors as far as I can tell :)

Are there any other recycleable metals I should look for at the scrapyard? Or should I stay with these? Are car leaf springs any good for razors, or the carbon content in these are too low? With what steel should I start forging in the beginning, which one is easier to work with?

Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it very much! :)

Years ago I apprenticed as a millwright, the old fillipino man I was learning from always told stories of making razors from old leaf springs to sell to local barbers....

I know leaf springs are commonly used to make knives. So they're probably good enough.
Same for old files and ball bearings. Another obvious source are old meatcleavers or other kind of cutting implement that holds a good edge.

EDIT: Speaking about cutting implements: if you have unkown steel, make sure it can be hardened (i.e. it is a monosteel).
I got a big paper cutting knife for free, and I cut a piece off of it and forged it into a kitchen knife, at which point I discovered that only the edge of the original knife was blade steel, and the body was just mild construction steel.

A quick test is to heat a thin stick of the material to non-magnetic and then quench in oil.
Clamp it in a vise and try to break it. If it breaks, you have good oil hardening steel. If it bends, repeat the procedure but quench in water. If it breaks, you have good water hardening steel. If it still bends, your steel is mild construction steel that can be used for handles, bodies, etc. Anything that doesn't need to be hardened.

I learned the above from Mike Blue, and it really helped me make sense of the steel I was working with.
I could finally prove that my steel was not a monosteel when I did a breaktest with a piece that ran alongside the edge. The body bent, but the edge material cracked every half centimeter or so. So it was clearly 2 types of steel welded together.

There are a few factors that affect your choices. Not all scrap materials fit into the old lists that used to highlight that spring steels were all 5160. The auto companies used whatever steel that made a good spring and not necessary do all those steels make a good blade. Spring steels are notorious for cracking too, so keep an eye out for that.

Old files would be better than average steels, but in recent years some companies are making them of case hardened mild steel.

Another group of steels that would be okay are the agricultural tool materials like disks, cultivator points, the cutting tool that digs into the dirt.

In any of these examples, Bruno's method of testing the steel first is important. Another helpful procedure is spark testing, THE SPARK TEST OF STEELS | Steel Data Search Engine

You won't know about any steel until you try these tests, then make a razor and see if it hones up to cut well. There is always a lot of time and tools involved in working up an unknown and you still risk disappointment. It's a sometimes painful part of the learning curve for recycling steels. Keep good notes. As long as it remains fun, it'll be cool. :)

In the past I have used a number of old files to try making razors from. Much to my dismay I overlooked one critical thing....the thickness of the file. As you already know the thickness determines the width of the blade, thickness x (3.5 to 4.0) = max width of blade. That will give you the proper angle on the bevel. A number of the razors I ground out ended up much to thin along the spine to be of any practical value. But... it was good grinding practice! :)

Look for the old files that are more than 1/4" thick. You will have to grind off the teeth of the file and that ends up being more than you think. The reality is most files are only suited for knife making because they end up being to thin to make a 7/8 razor which requires a 1/4" thick spine ( 1/4" x 3.5 = 7/8").

I did obtain some leaf springs from a 1938 Ford that have a high carbon content but were to thin for use as razors.:gaah: So check the thickness of the leaf springs carefully before you buy and remember they will have to be annealed first before grinding and cut or forged to rough shape first.:gl:

Everything I have bought, both the ball bearings and the files are thicker than 8-10mm, so I hope that will be enough :)

Thanks for all the advice, seems like I will stay with the old files in the beginning. They are all "vintage", so they should have been made from good quality steel, some are more than 30-40 years old. The ball bearings I have are made from 52100, but I have heard that this steel is not the easiest to work with, so I will leave that for times when I will have some basic experience in forging. I will make my first razors from O-1 with stock removal, just to be sure that I can make usable razors that way :)

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but do you think that "NEW" car springs are being made out of the good steel like 5160? I ask this because we haul a LOT of new flat stock to a customer that makes auto springs. If we were to derail a car load of it, I may be able to snag a piece of it.... Secondly I have considered contacting them for "scraps".

I'd ask them for scraps if I were you. They may have quite a bit of them, and that way they won't mind you taking them.
I obviously don't know what they maken them from, but a heat treat test like I described above would quickly show you whether the steel is good or not, even though it might not exactly be 5160.

next time your hunting around the scrap yard,ask if they have some patriot missle caseings,is good stuff:)

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

next time your hunting around the scrap yard,ask if they have some patriot missle caseings,is good stuff:)

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Wouldn't those be made from aluminium or titanium?
I don't know much about rockets, but weight is an extremely important consideration when dealing with fuel efficiency and range. Solid steel casings of a respectable thickness would be pretty heavy.

That said, submarine hulls and tank are supposedly made from high quality steel. Though it might be that these are more designed for toughness than hardness of course. And heat treating will be a challenge if they are complex alloys :)

Yes, Los Angeles class submarines are made of spring steel called HY100. I remember that one from sub-school...

This topic comes up ALL THE TIME on blade forums. So often they have a sticky in their workshop forum about it.

The general consensus is this: while it's neat to make something from another object, thus recycling and extending the useful life of the steel, it is almost always more cost effective to buy a known steel type. You'll know what it is, where it came from, and most importantly how to heat treat it. Without a good heat treat you will just have a razor shaped object.

Look up Aldo Bruno at NJ Steel Baron. He has a lot of different steel and is a great guy to work with. His 1084 is high Mn, and is SOFT. It's cheap and easy to forge too. His prices beat literally every other place I've checked. And if his website doesn't show a steel type (O1 for example) call him. Not only is he helpful, he's a hoot to talk to. He is in the process of updating his website completely, so a lot of his inventory is not up there yet. He will help you out.

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Originally Posted by jeness

I will make my first razors from O-1 with stock removal, just to be sure that I can make usable razors that way :)

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I just saw this part of your post.

Step 1: call Aldo and order 5/16x1 1/4 O1.
Step 2: grind everything away that doesn't look like a razor
Step 3: send to Mike Blue for HT. Ask for austemper. :) Make sure to pepper him with all sorts of inane newbie steel geek questions like I did. He's entirely too patient. Lol
Step 4: enjoy!


This is my O1 stock removal razor. Ht by Mike. My first but not my last.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Yes, Los Angeles class submarines are made of spring steel called HY100. I remember that one from sub-school...

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Here you go:
Attachment 92308
It's a really tough metal, look at that nickel content, bit I don't think it has enough carbon to harden to cutting ability.

Ok, steel geek off. Talk amongst yourselves.

One good old Leaf spring should yield a couple dozens razors for sure!!

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Originally Posted by Martin103

One good old Leaf spring should yield a couple dozens razors for sure!!

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Provided you know what steel it is 100%.

OR......

Call Aldo and get a 7/8"x40" round stock 5160 for $25 and KNOW all the hard work, time, and money you put into making razors isn't wasted by saving pennies on steel.

Time is the major cost in knife and razor making, not steel. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

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Originally Posted by medicevans

This topic comes up ALL THE TIME on blade forums. So often they have a sticky in their workshop forum about it.

The general consensus is this: while it's neat to make something from another object, thus recycling and extending the useful life of the steel, it is almost always more cost effective to buy a known steel type. You'll know what it is, where it came from, and most importantly how to heat treat it. Without a good heat treat you will just have a razor shaped object.

Look up Aldo Bruno at NJ Steel Baron. He has a lot of different steel and is a great guy to work with. His 1084 is high Mn, and is SOFT. It's cheap and easy to forge too. His prices beat literally every other place I've checked. And if his website doesn't show a steel type (O1 for example) call him. Not only is he helpful, he's a hoot to talk to. He is in the process of updating his website completely, so a lot of his inventory is not up there yet. He will help you out.

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I know, I started as a knife guy :) I have made a few knives, and now 2 razors, I already know something about steel from a lot of sources and reading. Thats why I asked specifically about usage regarding razors, because if a steel makes a good knife, it doesn't mean it makes a good razor :) It will probably, but not necessary.

I want to do stock removal and forging parallel, I will use mystery steel only for forging, and as long as I learn to forge properly. It would be a shame to spend 100$ on steel, which I overheat, and wreck with bad forging technique.

Thanks for the advice on steel buying, the only problem is that I am in Europe, and good steels are not readily available as in the US. The only steel I can buy if I am lucky is 6mm thick O1, and thats it. O1 is nice, but a bit expensive to learn forging on, but perfect for stock removal.

I have a friend here who makes the HT for me locally in a factory, and they are very good, so I am not considering to do it on my own :)

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Originally Posted by medicevans

Provided you know what steel it is 100%.

OR......

Call Aldo and get a 7/8"x40" round stock 5160 for $25 and KNOW all the hard work, time, and money you put into making razors isn't wasted by saving pennies on steel.

Time is the major cost in knife and razor making, not steel. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

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IF you can buy that stock :) I would be glad to pay the price for it, if it would be available for me. The distributors here get you the steel you want only if you buy about 1 ton of it... No joke, 1000kg of steel, or they won't even import it from Sweden or Germany. You are lucky over the seas, we are even struggling to find a steel that is about as good as 1095 or 1084, or even 5160.

See, this is what I get for not checking your profile first. Dang. Well, I got nutin' then. I still stand by my statement of buying known steel, but past that, I don't know how Hungary is.

I wonder how much flat rate of two or three bars cut to 8" or so then flat posted to you would cost? If you really can't get good steel, it might be worth it. 1084 is cheap enough, you might be able to get it shipped for not a whole lot total cost if you were ok with it being cut to shorter than 1 metre lengths.

Well, this is a possibility too, I thought about it. If I won't have any luck, than that will be my best bet. I can buy round stock from Böhler K510 here, but the minimum is quiet a bit. When I will know how to forge, than I will buy a few kilos of that steel.

If you can find some flat stock Bohler K510 you will have less work to do. Or, find a shop near where you live that uses this steel and sells short pieces of for scrap price. That is a very good material for what you want to do. Silver steel or a near equivalent like this is good for razors.

The factory makes only round stock, sadly. But I have heard that this steel would be very good, so I will search for a solution for it :)

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Originally Posted by jeness

IF you can buy that stock :) I would be glad to pay the price for it, if it would be available for me. The distributors here get you the steel you want only if you buy about 1 ton of it... No joke, 1000kg of steel, or they won't even import it from Sweden or Germany. You are lucky over the seas, we are even struggling to find a steel that is about as good as 1095 or 1084, or even 5160.

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I once contacted sandvik. They were very friendly and helpful. The only snag was that I had to order in minimum quantities of 300 to 500 kilos per type of steel.
Bohler uddeholm has a local distributor, and they supposedly have a minimum order size of only a 150 euros, which is manageable.

I found a german supplier who is very helpful, and sells smaller quantities. From him I can buy O1, 52100 and niolox. And W1 but then I'll need to forge it down to usable thickness.
Buying steel in the US is easy peasy, but for European knifemakers, it's a bit of a bother until you find your suppliers.

Anyway, provided your unknown steel passes the break-test, it is at the very least good enough to make kitchen knives. :)

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Originally Posted by jeness

IF you can buy that stock :) I would be glad to pay the price for it, if it would be available for me. You are lucky over the seas, we are even struggling to find a steel that is about as good as 1095 or 1084, or even 5160.

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Whatcha want and how much do you want? I'll be your middle man and get you whatever you want & ship to you at cost...it's the least I could do for a fellow razor maker...

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Buying steel in the US is easy peasy, but for European knifemakers, it's a bit of a bother until you find your suppliers.

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Very tricky to get anything close to what you need here in Australia too.

Stu

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Originally Posted by jeness

IF you can buy that stock :) I would be glad to pay the price for it, if it would be available for me. The distributors here get you the steel you want only if you buy about 1 ton of it... No joke, 1000kg of steel, or they won't even import it from Sweden or Germany. You are lucky over the seas, we are even struggling to find a steel that is about as good as 1095 or 1084, or even 5160.

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Actually, I've exchanged some e-mail with Aldo Bruno, he's perfectly willing to send small amounts to europe in Flat Rate shipping boxes.

Or send me a PM. I have a guy in Germany that sells small amounts of steel to individuals against VERY competitive prices.

PM sent, I am curious what kind of steel he has awailable.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

In any of these examples, Bruno's method of testing the steel first is important. Another helpful procedure is spark testing, THE SPARK TEST OF STEELS | Steel Data Search Engine

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Great info. I never heard of such a thing.