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Q1) Can a kamisori razor be made from thinner steel than a double hollow grind because of its grind shape?
Ie be made from 3mm steel?
Q2) Does a kamisori razor have a full flat on one side or is it supposed to be slightly convex..? I have seen both?
Sorry to bother everyone. But I need wisdom.
Kamisori is convex on both sides, if you have seen a flat one , then it was made wrong.
As far as thicknesses it will depend on the size, you have to maintain that 14-20 * angle of the bevels.
To get an answer to those questions you need measurements of a few sizes of kamisori.
The same applies to kamisori as to razors: you can't make what you don't understand, and you cannot understand a tool -any tool- without learning to use it. Buy a couple of old kamisori on ebay so that you can measure them and get a feel for them. Get someone to hone one of them (or buy one that is shaveready) and learn to use it. Then you will be in a much better position to make one.
Hey guys thanks for you posts and reply. I am currently looking to buy some Razors Bruno so I will learn a bit from that. Don't worry. Have you made a few Razors Bruno?
In the mean time look at this.
Here we see what appears to be three different grinds on Kamisori style razors.
The first looks like a curve on top but it is flat.
The second is hollow on both grinds very slight on one side though (made buy Puma)
The third seems to be more in line with what traditional kamisori look like.
http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/...des/images.jpg
http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/...s/images-1.jpg
http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/...s/images-2.jpg
Interesting.
Kamisori may look flat but they are not, just like some heavy wedges look flat but are not, believe me I have seen many of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
No kamisori is flat on either side.
The second pic razor you say was made by Puma, do you have any other pics? I am very sure that those are made in Japan by Japanese companies, if it was resales in puma scales, it does not make it Puma, only the tang stamp does.
Japanese Kamisori are "Deceptively" simple, you have pics of what look to be maybe one Japanese Kamisori there..
Like the guys already pointed out it is very confusing until you start taking razors apart, Honing, Stropping, and Shaving with them.. there is a special balance of use, that most who make razors miss completely...
Until that time is put in, you will just be making sharp steel and Razor like Objects, don't feel bad the road to making razors is littered with those that had the same idea...
(Please don't think I am being discouraging, I am saying do more research, and hands on study with old razors to understand that special balance)
No razor, kamisori, wedge, or 1/4 to full hollow could be honed if it was perfectly flat. All of them have a certain amount of convexity between cutting edge and spine honing flats. It would be impossible to achieve a bevel without tape or some device to build up the spine were it not so.
So in essence it's the ratio of blade depth to spine width that gives way to the razor being set in its bevel!
Ie a 3/4 razor blade width would equate to a 3/16 spine. Or in mm it would be 19mm blade with to just under 5mm spine. On a cutthroat.
Not quite, the two sides of Kamisori are hollow but the radii are different. As stated above get one study and you will understand. You can't get an idea just by talking about it, western straight is simpler than kamisori in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
The most important thing is to figure out why the Kamisori is made the way it is made, and that lies in the whole culture of how Japanese make their tools. The chisels, knives and plane blades are all hollow back, that allows for much smaller angle on the bevels and keener edge.
Again you will have to get real blades and try them, hone them , study them then make blades and learn by your mistakes.
Nicko
You have to understand that you must first learn to stand before you can run...think about an infant. Have you ever been around a toddler that keeps asking why & you get frustrated with the why & start answering "that's just the way it is"? I mean no disrespect, however you need to understand that you are asking questions that you simply cannot understand until you obtain a bit of experience.
Learn to shave, then you will understand a lot more about the tool. Learn to hone, you will learn a lot about different hardness's of the steels, geometry, the list goes on. You will learn how the grind & balance effects honing and shaving. Many/most of your questions will be answered by your learning the tool. Studying photo's isn't enough, you have to know what you need the tool to do before you can design it when it comes to razors...PERIOD.
Wanna learn from the ground up? I will gladly show you the way to the best of my ability all the way. Just like a house, you need a solid foundation before you build it.
Yes, I have made razors & razor looking objects that became cutting tools for my leather-working buddy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Wanting to make a kamisori without shaving with one or any other straight is like wanting to perform brain surgery without studying anatomy & dissecting a few cadavers.
Here are some pics if it helps but wisdom will only come with experience & learning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
I will indeed be getting a razor to look at. First I need to order some nice vernier to take some accurate readings. I do want to learn and I am all listening. I will have to take some time to save money as I am trying to support a family by myself as well. Teach me everything you know and I will listen. I read everything you guys write and am mindful my knowledge of razor geometry is next to nothing. However It does not worry me I have plenty of time to read up. I accept anyones advice and teaching I don't belive I am arrogant and will try to carry out what you have said to the best of my ability.
I do want to learn from the ground up. But will be limited to the tools I have, I cant be going out and buying 2000 dollar machines and stuff. You know. :(
Regards and thanks to everyone who has posted.
Nick
Ps those last photos are great! When a razor like that is honed to much it would become not very useful right? I am assuming that the almost flat side would wear away till it is flat? Probably take a life time though.
Once a razor is honed it can be touched up on a finishing hone/pastes when needed so it will not wear out in a life time. As far as the razor getting flat from honing, this is another thing you need to learn, how are kamisori made. Traditional kamisori are kasumi, soft iron for mass and hard thin piece of steel that is used to do the cutting. In essence over used kamisori can be reground with the right tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
You are not going to make your kamisori that way you will be doing stock removal, so yyou should not worry about fast wear of the razor.
One other thing, you mentioned you have no tools? How do you expect to make any kind of razor then? You will have to at least build a grinder. You will need a way to do heat threat, pretty much you are looking a pretty big rabbit hole here. Most guys that make custom razors have jobs and work razors because they really like the hobby but IFAIK it can't really support a family. Just trying to give you some perspective how things are.
Nick, can you see the thin dark grey section in the first pic on the left . That is the hard steel Stefan is talking about.
One other thing, you mentioned you have no tools? How do you expect to make any kind of razor then? You will have to at least build a grinder. You will need a way to do heat threat, pretty much you are looking a pretty big rabbit hole here. Most guys that make custom razors have jobs and work razors because they really like the hobby but IFAIK it can't really support a family. Just trying to give you some perspective how things are.[/QUOTE]
Lol I do have some tools. Linisher/mulitool grinder, Razor edge paper wheel system, and I remembered today that I have an old water cooled grinding wheel made by my Dad! This is the thing I would think most suitable to grind on. I am saying if someone says you need to buy a Tormek system or Radius master I would be outa pocket.
Nick
Lol I do have some tools. Linisher/mulitool grinder, Razor edge paper wheel system, and I remembered today that I have an old water cooled grinding wheel made by my Dad! This is the thing I would think most suitable to grind on. I am saying if someone says you need to buy a Tormek system or Radius master I would be outa pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Nick[/QUOTE]I think you should do a search on grinders and see what people around here use, to get some idea.
Hum its sorta like my japanese sword but the hard steel is on the outside!Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
It is not, as I said above the razor is made kasumi, the sword (if real) is made similar to honyaki method.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Lol you guys are hilarious. I mean Similar heating methods and folding techniques are used . Tamahagane and alloys of it are used to make those razors in Japan. I meant the combination of a soft steel and a hard steel is similar to a traditional sword.
Seems you have all figured out, so good luck in your endeavor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
I didn't mean to offend you. I was just wondering? Isn't that true?
Yep I offended you. Well sorry about that, just trying to learn.
No, you're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Several times you've
- given 'advice' without being qualified to do so.
- posted 'facts' that are plain wrong.
- told some very experienced people that you disagree with them.
You've been given tons of advice which you repeatedly ignore. You don't want to LEARN. You want to be told and you want to impress with 'knowledge' that you really don't have.
In short, you've managed to alienate many of the people here who've tried to help you. People who have many years or in some cases decades of hands on experience with metal. Don't be surprised if more people are starting to ignore you.
Only the first pic looks like a real kamisori - the second one looks like a regular blade with a flat ground along the shoulder on one side, the thirs id a cut down blade - you can see the pivot hole in the pic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Regards,
Neil
Good explanation, Neil. A little searching on your part will provide knowledge rather than unneccessary questions, Nicko.
Go to the search bar and type in what you wish to know. There are thousands of threads here where everything under the sun has been discussed. In this way, you can discover that Puma is not a maker of Kamisori. You can develop sight to tell you one grind from another. Your questions, if I may, seem to border on laziness. You have an obligation to explore and learn by what is written in order to ask real questions. If you cannot take everyone's advise to learn to shave with these and try different grinds, is also a sign of laziness, IMO. You seem to want answers on a platter to questions far beyond your comprehension. Slow down. Search the forum. Learn to shave. Learn about concrete things. Everything is virtually within the posts of this forum!:)
Then, and only then, will you be able to participate in meaningful dialogue with these gentlemen.
Everyone is here to help, Nicko. You must do your part to help as well. And most importantly. You must realize that the Bruno is always right. :brunoisright
Sincerely,
Tom
I agree with Bruno & Sharptonn.
I tried to say the same thing in your other thread but somehow you missed it.
Independent study is what it used to be called. Perhaps now it is called research. But you need to read & watch everything first then actually start using a straight razor for your shaving tool.
Ya just gotta do your homework !!!
Wasn't Bruno wrong once? Or was that JimmyHAD...? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
Regards,
Neil
Homework??? But it is not on the internet.. oh wait it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Can you imagine if this question was risen 10 years ago.. all that going to the library and reading books, ughhh.
Yeah, the good old bad old days! In truth, I preferred referencing 'real' books, making notes, tying things up - the nature of solving the problem called-up other avenues to explore, and the enforced silence aided concentration. There is certainly a lot on the net, though, but unseen problems often arise when people paraphrase and type out other peoples remarks - just one little error can change everything or send you chasing down a blind avenue. And the sad fact remains that the data on the net is only as good for as far as it goes - it doesn't even begin to approach the vast quantity of written documentation that can be had - if you know where to look for it! However once you acquire the knack a kingdom lays itself open to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Regards,
Neil
Don't get too sentimental about books - the only difference between a book and the internet is that with a book you have to get the content past an editor who has no clue what you are writing about. Reviewers often have agendas, research funding sources are tight, publishing margins are thinner....
The trick is critical reading in my book, whether it be journals, technical monographs, historical references, or internet forums. Who is the author, what are their affiliations, what is their area of expertise and how was that expertise obtained, why have they written what they have written, who paid for it, who reviewed it, what do other people say about it, does it make sense in light of your current knowledge, does it extend your current knowledge in a ways that make sense, etc etc
There is a wealth of information out there, but you only get "rich" from it if you know how to use it properly.
James.
Ok thanks guys. I was hoping to have my answers on a platter but I can see your all right. I humble myself and say a genuine "sorry" to all I have upset and annoyed. I will do my best to be patient and take the time to learn from the best. I have learnt stuff in the past the fast way and so far it's been good but I think the razor thing is a little more complicated then that. Thanks for all who posted I have read and will take on board what you have said.
Regards nick
Here is a good source of info to start with............http://www.feine-klingen.de/PDFs/verhoeven.pdf
He also has other pubs so look them up & read them. He is not the b'all endall but it is a good starting point. The one on sharpening is to be read with a healthy grain of salt. The Razor Central pdf I linked you to before should be read in its entirety.
I hope to see you back posting again. :)