"TRY BEFORE YOU BUY" idea.

I've seen this in the past and on other forums as well. I'm going to set up "loaner" sets.

Since we don't have monthly give aways I thought this might be something good to keep going year round.

I've got several razors of varying widths and grinds and some extra leather I'm going to make some strops with. I need to restore these razors first (mostly scales), and get some linen for the strops so it will be a few weeks before everything is ready, but here's how things will work:

Once I have the kits ready I will keep them available and sharp for any one who's interested but not certain on the straight razors. That person may, if they wish, contact me to arrange a loan of the equipment. I will likely require a fully refundable deposit, to be submitted to my business, that will cover the value of the set. I will carry a cheap mug, brush, and puck of soap that the person may purchase with the set and keep after returning the set. The person will have up to 30 days to evaluate the set and return it. Once I've received the set back in working order, I will fully refund the deposit. Then I will sharpen the razor and condition the strop for the next person on the list.

Additionally I will speak to Lynn about offering his video with these sets. I may require this in order to provide the new shaver with the necessary information to properly strop and shave. Even if I do, this will be much cheaper than having to buy an entire set just to try straight shaving for the first time.

This will be purely a not for profit venture. I will not make money on this. Depending on the feed back, and once I have the sets ready I will start a new thread, probably a sticky depending on admin forum feed back, with details, rules, etc.

Any genuine thoughts/comments welcome. No joking or off topic bs please.

Glen F

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flanny

Since we don't have monthly give aways I thought this might be something good to keep going year round.

Glen F

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I believe SRP has just started a monthly giveaway, though I don't think its permanent.

I think this is an excellent offer Glen. :tu

Glen,
i like the idea... do you need any extra razors? that is all i can offer now...
i the concept of giving people an out if they decide that it is not quite for them is a good idea. it may take some of the stress off them and allow them to focus more on getting great shaves; not focused on "man, i just spent a ton of money and i cannot get a superb shave the second time , now I'm out the cash"

It sounds like a really nice idea to me, although a lot of work for you. Some of the knife forums have a knife passaround which is fun and useful in helping the members make their purchasing decisions.

I'd be glad to donate a Strop for this venture if you want. I've got a few Artisan "seconds" with slight cosmetic issues that would get a beginner going just fine.

Let me know what you need.

Tony

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I believe SRP has just started a monthly giveaway, though I don't think its permanent.

I think this is an excellent offer Glen. :tu

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Yes it is permanet. as long as we have donations, Next Mont will be a Lynn honed razor, With Colleen Soap for the newb. A chrisgerrafe box and matching razor for everyone else.

Phil

Being new to straight shaving, I think this is a great idea. How long do you intend the loaners to stay with the person for? I would imagine this could be some length of time, the time it takes to learn how to shave correctly.

The idea would be a 30 day loan period.

I am interested in why some think it's not a good idea. What would be the draw backs that you see to this?

Thank you.

other than it being lots of work for you, I can't see any real down side to it...
You may need to figure a way to deal with the frequent rolled edges you may get...
also it might be a good idea to have several extra razors so that you can quickly rotate things through. If a razor is returned with a rolled edge, you can just pick out another one and send it back, and worry about rehoning when it's convenient.:shrug:

Let me know if you do decide to do this, and I'll try to provide a nice wood handled razor for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flanny

I am interested in why some think it's not a good idea. What would be the draw backs that you see to this?

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I love the idea, I'd actually thought about starting something like it up once I'm more established. Even thought of starting a thread for each kit being sent out to track the process and get status reports on each persons learning process with each kit.

My guess for the no votes is mainly worries about loaning stuff to someone that you barely know, but if it's something like one of Tony's seconds and a honed Wapi it wouldn't be too big of a deal, And I think as they would/already are coming to us for advice they'd quickly grasp the gentlemanliness of the forum and feel compelled to return it.

Edit: if not we'll just post their email address and sign them up to a bunch of spam links. (Did I say that?)

The drawback I see would be that such a set would have to be cleaned and honed each time the newbie is finished.

The razor and srop have to endure newbie mistakes every day, which means badly nicked strops, dings against the sink or the fawcet, sloppy stropping ...
And by the time they would start to make progress, it gets sent to another newbie to make the same mistakes all over.

The good thing with paying your own stuff is that it motivates you to keep it clean and to think about it beforehand instead of deciding on a whim.
And if you decide it is not for you, you can sell your stuff here to another newbie.

Okay, since it was asked....the drawbacks. I did this two years ago in December. I offered a complete kit ready to go and had about 8 immediate responses. The first fellow on the list actually got a set offered to him by another SRP member at the same time so the set was passed on to someone else on the list but I don't remember which guy as so many responses came it at once. I e-mailed everyone on the list but no replies. The set was never seen again <g>

I posted followups a few times but the culprit never surfaced and probably was not a repeat user of SRP. I am an optomist though so am glad to send off another strop if someone wants to handle this loaner idea.

I do think caution is needed in setting criteria as to how this is dished out. Free things, even on loan tend to attract the wrong crowd. on last Springs giveaway I had 8 strops to give away. Four of the winners had 5 posts or less and never even came back to claim their prizes. I gave the strop to other newbies over the next weeks.

I knoiw our long term guys would never do this but often events like this are cross promoted on other boards that don't have our family atmosphere.

Well, you asked....

Tony

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Originally Posted by Bruno

The razor and srop have to endure newbie mistakes every day, which means badly nicked strops.

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I hadn't thought of that, thankfully with due diligence I haven't done that yet *knock wood and sacrifices a cat to the razor gods* but I think if we get enough people on board, each taking responsibility of one full kit if wouldn't be a horrible endurance on anybody... and of course each kit doesn't have to have a 24 hour turnaround, it could be made ready at leisure.

ETA (Edited to add:) you could say that only one rehone or such would be given per kit or some such to make people a bit more careful.

Double edit: *sigh* I'm going to miss my cat.

I think it is a great idea, provided human nature doesn't get the best of it. I know of no way to help guarentee this, aside from a reasonable security deposit which you are already planning on. I would like to add that you should try and get information from some of the vendors here (printed) to include as well, at least those who are helping out with the venture. I hope this idea takes off, and props to you for ponying up for the man-hours required to make this work!

D'oh! I didn't even notice that he mentioned the deposit.

I say no for a few reasons.

1) razors can be easily ruined and who will correct that?
2) when you own the razor you are more inclined to stick with it as you have laid out the money!
3) people like different size razors.
4) health issues, people will not feel comfortable using razors that someone else has just used.

I just may be a cynic, but I think this has the potential to be a powder keg. Imagine that I'm a newbie, ask you for the kit, give you my deposit. I proceed to ruin the strop (and razor), copy the DVD, let the razor rust to hell, and then at the end send it back to you. You see the condition of the razor and strop, and say that you're not refunding his deposit (either at all or in part). That's where the wars start.

Also, the other thing I would caution against is stupid frivolous lawsuits - I get the razor, proceed to give myself such a good cut it requires stiches, and then I go back and sue you for providing me with a dangerous instrument without a thousand-and-three warning labels. I think that while this scenario is unlikely, the potential does exist, and without insurance, it could be a very costly generous act.

The third scenario is that I give you my deposit, you send me the kit, and I claim I never received it...now what? Do I get my money back? Can you prove that I'm lying?

Of course, I'm seeing the downside of things.

Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milton Man

I just may be a cynic, but I think this has the potential to be a powder keg. Imagine that I'm a newbie, ask you for the kit, give you my deposit. I proceed to ruin the strop (and razor), copy the DVD, let the razor rust to hell, and then at the end send it back to you. You see the condition of the razor and strop, and say that you're not refunding his deposit (either at all or in part). That's where the wars start.

Also, the other thing I would caution against is stupid frivolous lawsuits - I get the razor, proceed to give myself such a good cut it requires stiches, and then I go back and sue you for providing me with a dangerous instrument without a thousand-and-three warning labels. I think that while this scenario is unlikely, the potential does exist, and without insurance, it could be a very costly generous act.

The third scenario is that I give you my deposit, you send me the kit, and I claim I never received it...now what? Do I get my money back? Can you prove that I'm lying?

Of course, I'm seeing the downside of things.

Mark

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Playing "Devil's Advocate" helps in preventing situations such as you mentioned from arising.

1. As in software licenses. Use constitutes agreement to terms stated. Pictures of before shipped and when received will document failure to comply.

2. Again, use constitutes agreement that the user assumes all responsibility and releases SRP of all liabilities.

3. Proof of receipt; ship kits with signature required. If for some reason somebody actually didn't receive the kit but somebody signed for it, there is recourse.

If somebody is squeamish about using something somebody else used, well DUH, don't ask for it.

As we all know, the folks on SRP are all class folks and I would hope that we continue be so. I enjoy the camaraderie and the banter. It is just a fun place to hang out.

The soap, cup, brush, AND DVD would be non-refundable purchases. The razor and strop would be the loaned equipment with a deposit of something like 90 bucks or so on just those items..

There's health issues with any razor that are resolved by thoroughly cleaning the set and letting it sit for 10 days before sending it out again. Multiple sets on hand would help provide

I agree it's potentially a lot of work but with a required deposit that fully covers the value of the setand an understanding that if the equipment comes back ruined you don't get your money back, there's incentive to make an effort to care for the items. Plus the deposit and other necessary purchases would make enough of an initial investment that hopefully only sincere individuals would participate.

Nicks and dings I would care for myself As I've done in the past with friends who wanted to try out a razor for a while.

Requiring the DVD purchase would provide a base of knowledge readily available to the borrower before the borrower begins.

There's no way to guarantee returned items in 100% perfect condition, but every ebay razor has been a crap shoot also.

Those were my thoughts on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flanny

The soap, cup, brush, AND DVD would be non-refundable purchases. The razor and strop would be the loaned equipment with a deposit of something like 90 bucks or so on just those items..

There's health issues with any razor that are resolved by thoroughly cleaning the set and letting it sit for 10 days before sending it out again. Multiple sets on hand would help provide

I agree it's potentially a lot of work but with a required deposit that fully covers the value of the setand an understanding that if the equipment comes back ruined you don't get your money back, there's incentive to make an effort to care for the items. Plus the deposit and other necessary purchases would make enough of an initial investment that hopefully only sincere individuals would participate.

Nicks and dings I would care for myself As I've done in the past with friends who wanted to try out a razor for a while.

Requiring the DVD purchase would provide a base of knowledge readily available to the borrower before the borrower begins.

There's no way to guarantee returned items in 100% perfect condition, but every ebay razor has been a crap shoot also.

Those were my thoughts on it.

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I guess it could work. Maybe being a New Yorker has jaded my view but I just see problems out there. I hope I am wrong.

Don't worry Rich, someone has to take the worst possible view and speak openly about it so the rest of us can work on evaluating and solving those problems. If you come up with anymore, let us hear them!

Is there really a need for this is my question.
With good shave ready razors readily available from our members and several reputable vendors we reference on here (either as members or as outside vendors, eB sellers, etc.) in many cases for under $40 the real benifit they would be getting is use (and abuse therein comes) of a strop and not having to worry about the condition of the razor edge after their allotted time.
If they are required to buy the soap (or cream), brush, mug, and DVD (which I agree they should) they have already spent a fair investment which will not be recovered. Personally, I think there are many relatively inexpensive ways to get into straights- some that do not necessitate a strop at all and all are perfectly suitable to try it out.

I would think a good source for inexpensive yet decent quality strops would be a more widely usable thing. Reconditioned flee-bay strops more specifically would fill a gap for newbs needing a strop but not wanting to or unable to invest initially in a really good strop, such as one of Tony's.
We all know one of those, properly cared for, will last a lifetime but in a trial basis a $10-20 usable strop could be a better option.
Also, I don't remember a case of someone deciding it was not for them and having any trouble selling their razor and strop on the BSL forum.

Remember, those who will find this will have found this site already and should then be doing the diligence to read our resources and see our newbie recommendations and suggestions, otherwise I find it hard to believe they are genuinely interested and (as has been suggested) are simply here looking for a hand out.

I think this is a really nice idea, but whether it is actually workable, or very much better than the other options available is questionable at best.
As A noob myself, when I looked at this thread first, I thought, if only that had been available when I started out with straights. Then I read on, and thought some more. I started out with a shavette because I really couldn't afford a real straight. Well, that's not strictly true. I could of afforded a razor, but a strop, soap, hone etc pushed it out of my price range. I tried the shavette for a few months and then eventually justified the cost of a razor and strop, as I knew I liked using a straight.
Now, the way I see it, only newbies will be requesting this loan. Now, apart from all the above comments about the potential woes of loaning to an individual who is new, both to straights (Damaging the merchandise), and to the forum (Questionable morals). I see more problems from the perspective of that newbie.

The way I see it, there will be 2 types of newbies interested in this type of scheme.

1. Those who genuinely can't afford a full set up at the moment.

In this case, they would most likely also be unable to afford the deposit which would be required. And would be better served by purchasing a shavette or similar in order to see if they can grasp the technique of shaving with an open razor. Then by a pre honed wapi and a strop, and work up from there. Now, that I have a real straight, I realize that it does shave quite differently than a shavette. For the peeps that want to start with a real straight, maybe it would be a better idea to make available some pre honed wapis and some 'seconds' or starter strops from tony as a set for sale to newbies with the DVD and some other options.

2. Those who simply can't justify the investment into something they don't know if they will be willing, or able to keep up.

These people do have the money available, but simply don't want to waste it. As mentioned before these individuals would most likely be able to sell their equipment on the BST forum with only a marginal loss. As they would also suffer a marginal loss in the proposed scheme due to the non returnable items. I think these people are better served by the options already available, as they would have a wider choice of equipment to choose from, which they can most likely sell again in they event that they decide to give up on straight shaving. They can try the stuff for as long as they like, and the investment may help to motivate them.

I really did want to vote yes on this one, but feel that I must say no.
I hope I have offered some insight from the newbie perspective.

Connor

I'm with Rosco somewhat, but only to a point.

I'm new to SRP and to straight razing. I hemmed and hawed about switching over for about three years, even though my Merkur left me stubbly and my beard doesn't grow in thick enough to look like a beard (the worst of both worlds). I knew this place existed, but didn't really look through it enough to see that people did loaners.

The reason I didn't switch over was price. A cheap razor, plus honing (which I wouldn't have even thought of if it wasn't an option at vintage blades), plus strop. That's quite the upfront investment. I could afford it, sort of, but it would cost me more than a couple of drinks.

Eventually I budgeted out a bit of my student loan to pick up to goods and now I'm converted. I might have gone on for years more pondering how a straight razor would work.

A try-before-you-buy, or even better a try-to-buy (as in, you like it, you pay the rest) might have gotten me into it sooner. Even without the student loans, I could've set aside a bit for a month or two and afforded the cost with ease. I just didn't want to have shelled out the money and left with a nice looking but failed idea in my medicine cabinet.

My biggest concern, however, is health. I don't know where the faces of my internet neighbours have been and if you're not putting the razor in an autoclave once it's returned, I don't want it near my face. Frankly, you should consider if this is something you should be doing because you are potentially opening yourself up to a negligence suit. It's easy enough if you can befriend a dentist or a tattoo and piercing shop, but you are looking at adding in an extra cost.

That said, I would've been all excited for this if I heard about it sooner. Going to CVS and finding the Burma shave soap and brush for about $5 combined lead me towards having a badger brush and nicer soap, but a lack of a gateway razor and strop kept me away from that.

Being a newbie here I would say that this seems like a great idea to me. I am in the process fo purchasing all of my gear now so I can even try this. Granted it is not too bad for me as I have been wet shaving with a DE for awhile so I have some of this stuff already, just need a razor and strop to get going.

Chief

Edited because I can't spell.....

Unfortunately I agree with those citing the downside problems. Human nature being what it is, the loans will at some time be assumed gifts and not returned. Most things are considered worth what is paid for them, so what is provided on the cheap will become thought of as essentially worthless. If the deposit charged will pay for replacement when needed, the recipient can pay for the purchase of same.

Let's encourage away; offer free advice; offer pithy comment; maybe even offer to hone a razor for the beginner, but stay out of the rental business. There are too many headaches behind that storefront.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce

If the deposit charged will pay for replacement when needed, the recipient can pay for the purchase of same.

Let's encourage away; offer free advice; offer pithy comment; maybe even offer to hone a razor for the beginner, but stay out of the rental business. There are too many headaches behind that storefront.

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:tu

Is it me, or does it seem none of the newbs know about the cheaper options then??
Shapers, Injector types, Sanguines,and Shavettes? No strops, no strop technique, no honing, no hones, no honing technique, no honing expense....
I'm not saying you'll get the best shave of your life with a Weck.... but your first few shaves aren't going to be that good no matter what you use and the others use regular DE or Injector blades.....

Now, a really adventurous first razor could be a Feather and Guard blades, then sell the feather for almost what they paid for it (providing they don't pay too much by buying it from classic shaving...sorry- but they are overpriced for them) if they don't like it, get a great shave (sharp blades) and have no strop or honing issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by They Call Me Blockhead

My biggest concern, however, is health. I don't know where the faces of my internet neighbours have been and if you're not putting the razor in an autoclave once it's returned, I don't want it near my face. Frankly, you should consider if this is something you should be doing because you are potentially opening yourself up to a negligence suit. It's easy enough if you can befriend a dentist or a tattoo and piercing shop, but you are looking at adding in an extra cost.

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The same goes for razors you buy.
It is at your own risk, and you'd have to agree with that before getting a loaner.

I've actually thought about some sort of "try before you buy" system for SRP.

To avoid liability problems, I'd consider it a sale rather than a loan. The purchaser has the option of returning it back within 30 days provided the razor is returned in a acceptable condition. The refund will be issued less restocking fee.

The restocking fee can cover shipping costs and maintainance costs. If the person doesn't return it within 30 days then they bought it. No fuss no muss.

I have another downside that has not been mentioned.
There have been recent postings about concerns of health risks of using someone else's razor but it's not really hard to sterilize a razor with a decent disinfectant. However, I don't think there is any good way to disinfect a strop.
Imagine an "infected" individual receiving a shaving set. He uses it for a month and transfers some amount of generic cootie to the blade. With each stropping, some of that cootie is transferred to the leather strop. When the set goes back to the provider, the razor will be sterilized and the strop will not. Thus when the set goes on to the next person, stropping will transfer the cootie from the strop to the blade and from the blade to the shaver.
Any opinions about this?

Wow! Very generous offer guys.