Are some razors just better than others?

I'm wondering from all you honemeisters with great shaving technique.. Do some razors just shave you better than others? That is, among the "best" manufacturers.. Are some just better than others? Or is it always a matter of the razor in question needing some more hone loving or a tweak to the technique?

As a budding honer and shaver, I'm curious. I mean some razors seem very sharp and pass all tests and shave ok, but others of the same size and grind just seem to shave and feel better. At this point I don't know if it's my honing, technique or a bit of both. I'm curious if this ever goes away or if you always have preferences? How many honing touchups and days do you give a particular razor before you write it off as "meh"?

It's also good to remember that not all razors work for everyone's face. Some guys like Wedges, some don't. Some like Solingen steel others like Sheffield, etc.

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Originally Posted by Disburden

It's also good to remember that not all razors work for everyone's face. Some guys like Wedges, some don't. Some like Solingen steel others like Sheffield, etc.

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I guess that's really what it is. I'm wondering if those differences are more a technique thing, a honing thing, or just a preference thing.

they say that a really good shaver can shave with any well honed straight, at least 'they" being some of the people here. I have found some razors do shave beter for me than others of the same size and sharpening. I don't know if it is the steel, the grind or what. heavier razors work better for me in general. My 5/8 thistle cut I sold (mistake) was possible my best so far. but maybe that was just because at the time I only had that one and spent three months getting really good with it.

Red

edit: :gaah: Didn't read this part. "honemeisters with great shaving technique" Ignore what I said below. :gth:w


Quick answer: yes, yes they are.

Long answer:
Quality of the razor lies in two things: the blade and the scales. Obviously the better quality scales are easier to spot, so we won't discuss that. But the blade should be centered, the scales should be the right length and the pins should be tight.

The other is the blade. First and foremost, the blade needs to be heat treated properly in order to reach a good RC (hardness). Second, a good blade will have an even grind. There are other things, but the first is the most important, the second is mostly for aesthetic reasons, but obviously a grind that is extremely off on one side is probably not going to be a great shaver either.

Ok, so what does that mean? It means that some manufacturers had better quality control standards, better heat treatment procedures, and better furniture (scales). Names that come to mind: Dubl Duck and Puma. Now, does this mean that Dubl Duck and Puma are better than a W&B? Or a Greaves & Sons? Or an American brand? Not necessarily. For the most part, the razors that have survived the test of time survived because someone thought they shaved well enough to not chuck in the trash bin. I will say however, that for the most part, W&B's have some pretty plain looking scales. For the most part anything made in Sheffield or Solingen was of good quality.

However, when you compare a Puma to one of those razors being sold as new on ebay... clearly the Puma beats the junker in quality, shave, etc. But when putting up a Puma v. a Duck...its going to come down to personal preference.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

I'm wondering from all you honemeisters with great shaving technique.. Do some razors just shave you better than others?

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LOL, I guess this disqualifies me from answering :)
Let Lynn speaketh

Lol, I didn't mean to disqualify any responses, I'd like to hear from everyone!

Leighton, that's kind of what I was after. I guess maybe some of it comes down more to quality control or perhaps damage to the razor over time.

How about another question instead.. Have you guys ever had a razor that "should be good", say, a Puma or a Duck, that for the life of you, you just couldn't get right or be happy with? How common is it? I mean, if you buy a Duck or a Puma that, upon inspection, appears to be in good shape, but after a few honing sessions and shaves you are still not that satisfied, are you REALLY confused? Or do you just toss it in the "meh" pile and move on with your life?

Then there's the secondary question that kind of gets back to my original question... How much difference in the shave is there, really, between the different razors that are considered to be of "good" quality? Let's say, for example, a plain-scaled Genco and a plain-scaled Duck, both of the same size and grind, both honed by the same experienced honemeister. Would you expect both to shave you so well that with your eyes closed it would be hard to tell them apart? Or would you expect one to provide an OK "acceptable" shave, and the other to provide a much better/smoother/closer shave?

Some razors are more difficult to get right, but unless there is a warped blade, they all can shave. I just find that some are better than others. I've a Puma Gold that is fantastic, but a DD Wonderedge that is just as good, if different.
And truth to tell, one of the best shaving razors for the price ever to pass through my hands was a plain jane Clauss 6/8ths. That razor was the equal of either the Puma or DD. In a fit of stupid I donated it to one of the give aways and often wish I had it back.
It just seems that the better brands are more consistent in providing excellent quality shaves. The lesser brands are more of a lottery, but when you win you can win big.

I bite my fingers to keep from replying, but as neither honemeister nor one with great shaving technique, I can't. :fim:

This is darned hard for one with opinions on nearly everything, doncha know. :cry:

Not speaking as a honemiester but rather as a wannabe or more politely an aspiring honemiester with so- so shaving technique. I do however have RAD and as a result a large collection of straight razors. So with that qualifier I would say that yes some are better then others even within a specific brand.

OTOH, especially in the vintage stuff those people were selling to barbers maybe even more then to individuals and they had a very competitive market. They had to put out a good product or word would get around quick and they would be out of business.

The old barbers I used to ask about straights twenty five years ago favored Solingen razors first with Sheffields second. This was in the Newark, NJ area. They especially liked Dubl Ducks and FWE but said that any Solingen razor would be of good quality. One barber in particular would take his thumb and flick the point to make a ringing noise. He told me that if the razor didn't "ring" it was not as good as one that did. I'm not saying that is a fact rather just mentioning what he said.

Of the old vintage razors I have shaved with some may have been easier to get to shave ready then others and gotten sharper but all have been good so far.

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Originally Posted by Bruce

I bite my fingers to keep from replying, but as neither honemeister nor one with great shaving technique, I can't. :fim:

This is darned hard for one with opinions on nearly everything, doncha know. :cry:

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I didn't mean to rule out anyone (everyone?). I really do want to hear everyone's opinions! Please disregard all mention of honemeisters and shaving technique in my first posts :gaah:

I have 3 razors, a wapi, a bengal and an unbranded razor made for a Manchester businessman back in 1910. Of all of them the Manchester razor is unbeatable it lasts for ages before honing and just suits me. The wapi is ok but lacks that certain something but that is a personal thing. As for the bengal, it really doesn't seem to suit me that much. I don't know why - it is a lovely razor but never seems to get that close.

I guess in my case it is a face, whiskers and razor combination. They all came from the same seller and were all superbly honed. But I think it comes down to how you fit the razor.

Not sure if this helps but my 2pc worth.

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Originally Posted by nathanjones

I have 3 razors, a wapi, a bengal and an unbranded razor made for a Manchester businessman back in 1910. Of all of them the Manchester razor is unbeatable it lasts for ages before honing and just suits me. The wapi is ok but lacks that certain something but that is a personal thing. As for the bengal, it really doesn't seem to suit me that much. I don't know why - it is a lovely razor but never seems to get that close.

I guess in my case it is a face, whiskers and razor combination. They all came from the same seller and were all superbly honed. But I think it comes down to how you fit the razor.

Not sure if this helps but my 2pc worth.

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So true. When I used to shave DE and participate in DE shaving forums I was surprised to see how many people had differing opinions of the performance of the top rated DE blades. One man's favorite was a dog to the next fellow. It stands to reason that the same would apply to straights.

Having been absent for quite a while this seems an ideal thread to jump back in. Yes, I believe some razors are better than others. First comes the Thiers-Issards followed closely by the Ice-Hardened Dovo's. In my opinion there is no reason to look at any other. :w

I have been using straight razors, mainly TI's, for a long time and have used a lot of different razors. Their ability to take and hold an edge places them on top.

Bill

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

So true. When I used to shave DE and participate in DE shaving forums I was surprised to see how many people had differing opinions of the performance of the top rated DE blades. One man's favorite was a dog to the next fellow. It stands to reason that the same would apply to straights.

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You know, I never looked at it that way, Jimmy. Interesting point!

An interesting topic!

Yes, there is definately a difference from one brand of razor to another. The Ducks, Pumas, W&B's, Filly's, Wosties, ShurEdge, Revisor, Henkles Friodur, and on and on....

I have noticed, though, as I have become a better shaver and a honer, many, many more brands are being added to this list of great shavers. In fact, almost all of them.

Then I need to break out my Maestro Levi or my Robert Williams to bring me back to reality as to what is really great edge!

Steve

I have had dozens of razors pass through my hands, maybe hundreds. I have found very little difference between most razors. Some are made from ridiculously hard steel and should hold an edge...forever. Some are very easy to hone and may lose their edge sooner.

I've had DD's with messed up spine wear that took hours to regrind. In the end, they made great shavers. That said, some of my best shavers are non branded razors. I've had four non-branded, presumably American, razors and each of them performed exceptionally well.

Like others have said, it can be a crap shoot. But that doesn't mean it was the maker's fault either. The razors on ebay could have been honed with a heavy hand, creating a frown or taper, or other problems. They might have been dropped in the past. Or they could have been manufactured incorrectly. All steel with a good heat treatment can take an edge, so all razors will theoretically shave just as well as any other razor. That said, some razors with better heat treatment will hold their edge better.

Keep this in mind as well. Som razor owners just prefer a single brand of razor for no other reason than they personally prefer it. Just like coke v. Pepsi. Also, if someone spends $500 on a razor, there is definitely the psychological need to justify the purchase price, therefore subjectively the razor will be the best razor ever. This does not mean that the $500 razor is not the best razor ever, it just means that spending $500 on it has an effect on the perceived quality of the shave. And because DD's and Pumas routinely cost over $100...it could very well be a psychological preference. Don't get me wrong, all my ducks are superb shavers. And the one Puma that I have come across was also a superb shaver. BUT, so far I have not come across a crappy shaver either. Broken razors yes, razors that need to be trashed, yes.

There is a difference in shave quality but it doesn't seem to be as big a deal as it once did. Except for wedges, which invariably give me razor burn unless they're a bit dullish. I think at some point you get to where you can get just about anything sharp enough to shave well, and at that point it comes down to familiarity, ergonomics, aesthetics, and maintenance. I've got a mint DDWE that I never use because I don't like the long blade, and it doesn't shave me sufficiently better than anything else to warrant retraining my instincts.

One of my favorite razors is a chrome-plated 5/8 Koeller that I've had for about 3 years now. It shaves about like a DDWE, Puma, ERN, Boker, Clauss, Heljestrand, Genco, Robeson, Waterville etc etc etc, but wins for non-shave reasons. I replaced the original warped scales with Dovo ebony scales from Classic Shaving. Lightweight, small, agile, the chrome and ebony look great together, and the chrome makes cleanup a snap. And after all these years together it just seems to strop and shave itself.

Edit: This isn't to say that razors are basically interchangeable - They definitely aren't. Pumas and Dubl Ducks have very distinct personalities, for example, even though they shave nearly identically and it's likely the DD's were actually made by Puma. I love the Puma "feel", and don't really care for DDs, and feel somewhat ambivalent about my PumaDuck. But this isn't based on how they shave, but on some fuzzier and ill-defined preferences. I love nearly all the old grind TI's but the new grinds and Silverwing leaves me cold, though they all shave well. And Watervilles make me curl my toes in delight but I always feel guilty shaving with them because they're so old and delicate. But I have no such guilt shaving with their W&B contemporaries because the W&Bs are so substantial.

Aside from the basic shape of the razor, and the grind of the razor, another critical component is the STEEL of the razor. That makes a huge difference in how it hones and how it shaves. Why do you think a Zeepk sucks? The steel sucks, and it doesn't matter how the blade is shaped or what kind of scales are attached. If the steel is bad the razor is bad. If the steel is great, then at least the razor has the potential to be great.

The first Griffon Carbo-Magnetic razor I ever bought was an amazing shaver. I bought several more hoping to eventually make a seven day set with them. None of the other razors I bought were as good. They shaved just fine, but they were not the amazing shave of the first one. I finally noticed the difference--the first one had a small imprint with the words "extra hard." The grind and shape of all the razors was identical but that one razor was made with different steel, and it made a world of difference.

I think if you start saying this razor is better than that brand wise you can get into trouble because there are so many things that people prefer from one to the other that affect the ultimate performance from both a physical and psychological standpoint. You also have to be careful about barbers opinions because many brands like Double Duck were really made and sold for the trade and these brands had salesmen who went from shop to shop peddling their wares so very often if you went into a shop you would often times see the same handful of brands. It might be a cost factor for the barber I don't know.

I can tell you this. I have about 100 razors of all brands and grinds and sizes and I classify my razors as either giving an excellent, outstanding or exceptional shave. They all shave wonderfully so its like splitting hairs (ha ha) between them but the exceptional category is a razor where if you were blindfolded and someone shaved you with it and you didn't know you were being shaved you could never tell a razor was going down your face that's how smooth and sharp it is. The other categories, well you can feel the razor working on your face to various degrees. Now I can change an excellent shaver to an outstanding one if I'm willing to put in enough time on the hone but no matter what I do I can't make an outstanding shaver an exceptional one. Its something the razor either has or doesn't and that's it. Of all my razors I would say probably 25% are exceptional razors and that cuts across brands. I have about 20+ ducks and they all shave wonderfully but only about 25% are exceptional.

So what makes a razor exceptional? Balance, the feel in the hand, good QC with the blade, good manufacturing, good steel. Who knows maybe these and maybe other factors.

The moral of the story is that you not only have to try different brands, and different models within a brand, but also different examples of the same model. :gaah:

Or be content with what shaves you well.

Another consideration is that an average steel with superb heat treatment may outperform a superb steel with average heat treatment.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I have about 100 razors of all brands and grinds and sizes and I classify my razors as either giving an excellent, outstanding or exceptional shave. They all shave wonderfully so its like splitting hairs (ha ha) between them but the exceptional category is a razor where if you were blindfolded and someone shaved you with it and you didn't know you were being shaved you could never tell a razor was going down your face that's how smooth and sharp it is. The other categories, well you can feel the razor working on your face to various degrees. Now I can change an excellent shaver to an outstanding one if I'm willing to put in enough time on the hone but no matter what I do I can't make an outstanding shaver an exceptional one. Its something the razor either has or doesn't and that's it. Of all my razors I would say probably 25% are exceptional razors and that cuts across brands. I have about 20+ ducks and they all shave wonderfully but only about 25% are exceptional.

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Wow! I wish I could say that all of my razors gave an excellent, outstanding, or exceptional shave.

I can't!

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Another consideration is that an average steel with superb heat treatment may outperform a superb steel with average heat treatment.

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I fail to understand what would make one steel better than another. Sure, there are junk grades of steel that would be unsuitable for razor making, but of the ones that are suitable, I fail to see an appreciable difference. I don't understand. :thinking::confused:

There are a lot of attributes that a good shaving razor will have,
and these are different for each shaver. I've found that for me,
most of the qualities of a 'good razor' are peripheral to the edge
itself:

- Nice feel in the hand, weight, balance, shank length, tang, etc.
- Razor opens properly in the scales, pinning etc.
- Good stiffness in the blade. Width is less important to me.

Basically, I like razors that feel good in my hands when stropping
and shaving, and gives a good shave -- that's it!

- Scott

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Originally Posted by Leighton

I fail to understand what would make one steel better than another. Sure, there are junk grades of steel that would be unsuitable for razor making, but of the ones that are suitable, I fail to see an appreciable difference. I don't understand. :thinking::confused:

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I'm no expert but my impression is that there are many different alloys of steel as well as variations in forging and heat treatment. The alloy will have an effect on the characteristics of the blade relating to stain resistance, toughness and sharpness. How hard or easy it is to hone and how long it holds an edge. At least that is my impression. I could be wrong. I was wrong once before. :hmmm:

One thing about differences in steel (and these differences do
exist) is that they're sometimes hard to measure in terms of
their effect on the shave. For example, I've had both carbon
and stainless Dovos that give equally great shaves, yet they
use totally different steels.

:shrug:

- Scott

Regardless ergonomics, that depend on personal preferences, all razors that are produced to traditional high quality standards, can be honed to shavereadiness. But beyond that level of performance lies a whole world of different nuances in keenness and smoothness. It's like raising children. You try to educate a razor on the hones to the best of your abilities, but it still remains a somewhat elusive chase. All the metaphors of parenting apply: Don't try to push the razor beyond its limits. Heavy handedness may seem successful on short term, but fails in the long run. A good spine is where it all starts. Beware of temper. Honor character and disposition.

Some razors really stand out. They take a better edge and can only serve as an example for others. There's a higher chance finding them in a few particular brands. I have 3 of those in a collection of about 16 and I consider myself very lucky with that ratio.

I think metallurgy and heat treatment remain some kind of alchemy.

Bart.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I'm no expert but my impression is that there are many different alloys of steel as well as variations in forging and heat treatment. The alloy will have an effect on the characteristics of the blade relating to stain resistance, toughness and sharpness. How hard or easy it is to hone and how long it holds an edge. At least that is my impression. I could be wrong. I was wrong once before. :hmmm:

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Gotcha. What makes steel different are the percentages of certain elements. Ie, Silver steel generally has more carbon than "regular" steel. Stainless has chromium and nickel and other elements "carbon steel" doesn't have. Different types of stainless steel can have differing amounts of carbon %. The carbon % is what gives the steel its brittleness and hardness. Its a tradeoff. More carbon = harder steel, but more brittle. Usually the difference is really small, so in reality, the difference in steel is actually smaller than most people think.

So theoretically, the higher carbon %, the longer the edge will last. In theory. How much longer? Probably not that much because carbon percent is measured in fractions of percent.

So what really matter? The heat treatment maters. Its also the hardest thing to get right when making sharp pointies.

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Originally Posted by Leighton

Gotcha. What makes steel different are the percentages of certain elements. Ie, Silver steel generally has more carbon than "regular" steel. Stainless has chromium and nickel and other elements "carbon steel" doesn't have. Different types of stainless steel can have differing amounts of carbon %. The carbon % is what gives the steel its brittleness and hardness. Its a tradeoff. More carbon = harder steel, but more brittle. Usually the difference is really small, so in reality, the difference in steel is actually smaller than most people think.

So theoretically, the higher carbon %, the longer the edge will last. In theory. How much longer? Probably not that much because carbon percent is measured in fractions of percent.

So what really matter? The heat treatment matters. Its also the hardest thing to get right when making sharp pointies.

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If Mike Blue happens along in this thread he can really speak to the nuances of metallurgy and heat treating. Other members as well but I know Mike is expert in that area.

JimmyHAD, yesterday 11:21 AM
"One barber in particular would take his thumb and flick the point to make a ringing noise. He told me that if the razor didn't "ring" it was not as good as one that did. I'm not saying that is a fact rather just mentioning what he said."

Same basic idea as the 'singing sword' from tales of the old knights. The best sword would sing when you flicked it.

Now a razor that does not sing will cut whiskers. But you will get peak performance with an ultra thin edge, only a few molecules thick. Your barber's thumb test indicates that you have the 'fin' (can't think of a better word for it).

If the edge is not ultra thin when you first get the razor, you have to think through the geometry to get it there. But once you get there, you can maintain the edge for quite a while.

And you will know you can do it; that's worth something, eh?

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

If Mike Blue happens along in this thread he can really speak to the nuances of metallurgy and heat treating. Other members as well but I know Mike is expert in that area.

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Yup. I'm no metallurgy expert, but I know way too much on the subject. Spent too much time at swordforum.com... Great smiths hang out there and share their knowledge.

For those who are interested, heat treatment heats the blade so a very high degree, making the molecules of the steel into a certain pattern. This pattern gives the steel its rigidity and allows it to hold an edge. Now, if the metal worker then just let the steel cool down slowly, the molecules would go back to their original configuration and nothing special occurs. However, when the metal worker rapidly cools the hot steel, the molecules are "flash frozen" in their special configuration, making the steel hardened. Think water and ice. I believe the steel is given a crystaline formation when heat treated.

Tempering is the process of heating the hardened metal to a certain degree for a certain amount of time, reducing some of the brittleness of hardened steel. Too much tempering and I believe you get unhardened steel. Not sure on that, but you can mess up the steel by tempering it wrong.

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Originally Posted by John G

JimmyHAD, yesterday 11:21 AM
"One barber in particular would take his thumb and flick the point to make a ringing noise. He told me that if the razor didn't "ring" it was not as good as one that did. I'm not saying that is a fact rather just mentioning what he said."

Same basic idea as the 'singing sword' from tales of the old knights. The best sword would sing when you flicked it.

Now a razor that does not sing will cut whiskers. But you will get peak performance with an ultra thin edge, only a few molecules thick. Your barber's thumb test indicates that you have the 'fin' (can't think of a better word for it).

If the edge is not ultra thin when you first get the razor, you have to think through the geometry to get it there. But once you get there, you can maintain the edge for quite a while.

And you will know you can do it; that's worth something, eh?

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Welcome to SRP John. Your use of the word "fin" to describe it was the subject of a great debate awhile back. I don't want to start it over again, just mentioning it as it came to mind. Take a look at the SRP Wiki for all kinds of interesting stuff . They are building a razor database right now and contributions ( photos not money :)) are appreciated.

Steel, Schmeel. For all practical purposes we're talking about what most of us have and most guys have vintage or new factory made razors. Just consider that most of our vintage razors were made in an environment where most companies only did minimal fabrication. Most bought the blanks from a supplier and most bought the scales from a scale supplier and many probably didn't even do the heat treatment. It was a rare company that did it all. So based on that you can conclude that the steel is pretty comparable from brand to brand and no different for the English makers or U.S makers. maybe the really old stuff from the mid 1800s or earlier were complete manufacturers out of necessity.

So if you want to know why one is better than the other I'm afraid the raw material is not the place to look. Of course modern custom's are a different story with choices in steels.

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Originally Posted by Leighton

I fail to understand what would make one steel better than another. Sure, there are junk grades of steel that would be unsuitable for razor making, but of the ones that are suitable, I fail to see an appreciable difference. I don't understand. :thinking::confused:

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Certainly most razors are made with 'good' steel. My point was that a good heat treatment makes all the difference.

Thebigspendur.. I have to disagree I think soligen steel dffiers from let's say Swedish or Chinese, or Sheffield. I don't have proof just imho.

JimmyHad "They especially liked Dubl Ducks and FWE but said that any Solingen razor would be of good quality. One barber in particular would take his thumb and flick the point to make a ringing noise. He told me that if the razor didn't "ring" it was not as good as one that did. I'm not saying that is a fact rather just mentioning what he said." It must be a jersey thing, but I agree totally with this assesment.. I love german steel.. it's made like no other.

Cheers
D

Ask Butch how he manages to get different hardness from the same steel by giving it varying heat treatment. And then how different steels behave after similar treatment. The combinations are many, and there are always trade offs made.