Alternate materials for blades

Has anyone investigated other materials for straight razor blades? I'm thinking things like ceramic or tungsten or even titanium. Look at the difference under a microscope and tell me this wouldn't have possibilities.

This is a product called "endurium" and it has been used for 3,000,000 feet of cutting:
http://www.specialtyblades.com/filmf...rium_blade.jpg

Now this one is standard carbon steel after 250,000 feet of cutting:
http://www.specialtyblades.com/filmf...teel_blade.jpg

I've already shot an email off to this particular company and they said they don't do shaving products, but they did refer me to another company. Any thoughts on this?

[EDIT]I found an answer to part of my own question on Kyocera's website:
The peeler is great! How come you don't make a shaver?
Too dangerous! A metal razor blade has a relatively "rounded" edge (under the microscope) which prevents the blade from cutting into the skin. A ceramic razor blade, however, does not have a rounded edge and slices into the skin. Thus, a ceramic shaver would be too dangerous to use. Several engineers in Sendai who tested prototypes can confirm this painful fact!
That still leaves tungsten and titanium, though...[/EDIT]

Although it might seem at first blush like the material that holds a perfect edge without dulling might be the best answer, I think there's a greater reason to go the other way. :thinking: Not only wouldn't it dull, but if it DID (dropped on the floor or whatever :( ) it would likely be HELL to try and rekeen. :rant:

The ancient egyptians used bronze for their razors which is a notoriously soft metal. I don't think it was by choice for them. It was the Bronze Age after all and that was the hardest metal they had. For us though, it would seem extremely supple, I suspect and respond well to sharpening and stropping. It might dull too quickly though. If bronze isn't the material, maybe brass or something else, :hmmm: but IN THEORY I would favour a MORE responsive material than less.

X

You make an excellent point, there. I could imagine rekeening the edge would be murder on harder materials, but if you're looking for something malleable then the high-carbon steels should already fit the bill. Considering some people have to strop mid-shave, I really doubt using a softer metal would be an option.

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Originally Posted by xman

Although it might seem at first blush like the material that holds a perfect edge without dulling might be the best answer, I think there's a greater reason to go the other way. :thinking: Not only wouldn't it dull, but if it DID (dropped on the floor or whatever :( ) it would likely be HELL to try and rekeen. :rant:
X

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Realistically, I don't think that should be a consideration. Something with an edge with this durability would be sold as a permanently sharp razor- no sharpening. Hopefully it could be priced reasonably enough so you could just buy a new one if you dropped it and ruined the edge. Or for the rare occasions it would merely be sent out to a shop to be repaired or sharpened. It would probably need special equipment.

If you dropped it it would likely shatter. Boker has made a few ceramic knives over the years and they do indeed hold an edge for a long long time. They DO get dull though, and the only option is sending them back to Boker for sharpening. I didn't know Kyocera had already looked into this. Makes sense though. I'm thinking they didn't do a str8 though to test. And if they did, they probably couldn't find anyone with the experience to give it a good go. If they wanted they could slightly round the edge, microscopically speaking. The Boker pocket knives with ceramic blades were decently sharp out of the box, but nothing like a razor. I believe they could make a str8 such as that precisely as sharp as they wanted to.

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Originally Posted by threeputt

If you dropped it it would likely shatter. Boker has made a few ceramic knives over the years and they do indeed hold an edge for a long long time. They DO get dull though, and the only option is sending them back to Boker for sharpening. I didn't know Kyocera had already looked into this. Makes sense though. I'm thinking they didn't do a str8 though to test. And if they did, they probably couldn't find anyone with the experience to give it a good go. If they wanted they could slightly round the edge, microscopically speaking. The Boker pocket knives with ceramic blades were decently sharp out of the box, but nothing like a razor. I believe they could make a str8 such as that precisely as sharp as they wanted to.

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I have seen that quote about ceramic blades before, and I don't believe it. The main reason is what you said: they can always shape the edge. The other reason is that razors tend to be sharper than any other edge. They're always trying for a razor sharp edge. So, it's unlikely that some other application would be too sharp.

I have also seen an honest statement by another experimenter that they couldn't make ceramic blades sharp enough to be useful as a razor.

We had a long thread about ceramic blades on another site.

I've shot an email off to Kyocera to see what kind of razor they were testing and I asked if they would be willing to do a small run of straights for some experienced folk to test out. Any volunteers? :)

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

I've shot an email off to Kyocera to see what kind of razor they were testing and I asked if they would be willing to do a small run of straights for some experienced folk to test out. Any volunteers? :)

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Count me in. I'm always up for a challenge!

Why not! Me, too!

Randy

You can count me in too.:D

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

I've shot an email off to Kyocera to see what kind of razor they were testing and I asked if they would be willing to do a small run of straights for some experienced folk to test out. Any volunteers? :)

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Oooh oooh! I'm give it a try.

I've wanted to buy one of their ceramic knives, but I'd hate to have an accident and break it. That, and my wife tells me my Henckels are just fine. Then she waves her hand, tells me I don't need any more knives, and I suddenly feel like I don't need it.

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

I've shot an email off to Kyocera to see what kind of razor they were testing and I asked if they would be willing to do a small run of straights for some experienced folk to test out. Any volunteers? :)

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I want to try one also. or maby you can let me have the contact info so I can get some of the mettal?

Mason

There obviously is a fair amount of interest in these. I've sent another email to Kyocera telling them so and I'm asking them if they can produce just the blade (I'm thinking we can take care of the scales) and we'll come up with an agreed-upon size for the blade they trial. Personally, I'm thinking 5/8 as there's already paaka scales available for that size, but I'm open to discussion on that. Also, I'm assuming people would want a hollow grind for this? Kyocera might need a blade to use as a template, so I might be hitting up somebody on the forum to send one out for them to use. Lastly, I really don't think they'd do this for free so there might be a cost involved in getting these. That being said, how many people would seriously be interested in trying out a ceramic razor with the understanding it might not be a feasible option and you'd be out some money if that's the case? Nothing's set in stone with Kyocera yet and I'll post more details as I get them, but I'm going to be persistent with this!

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

I've shot an email off to Kyocera to see what kind of razor they were testing and I asked if they would be willing to do a small run of straights for some experienced folk to test out. Any volunteers? :)

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My recollection is that it was years ago and they were just experimenting. Good luck! I don't think they'll run out and do a few of these. The originals were probably lab samples.

They might let you have some samples, but I would be surprized there's far too much liability for them.

I love Boker knives, but ceramic blades suck. There is a reason they have not become popular. They are very expensive, they dull quickly and you cannot sharpen them without lapidary equipment. :rant:


I applaud efforts to find the "new" material, but there are plenty of good choices now. If everyone is complaining about stainless, waitele you try titanium :eek:

Titanium isn't a bad idea, but there's not a lot of weight behind the blade, so it really changes the dynamics of shaving. Nice thing about titanium is you can still sharpen it with a tungsten carbide sharpener.

I have a reply from a vendor that is willing to give this a shot with tungsten, of all things. She's looking for information on specific measurements. I offered to send her a razor as a template, but I think they want a general idea so they can get to work on a bid. Anyone know the measurements of an average 6/8 for length and width? I already have the height :D

Count me in on these as well (Me too, me too!!!)
I'm not sure a hollow ground is best if it is being made of an ultra brittle material like ceramic. Perhaps a wedge, or perhaps 1/4 hollow? something with more substance?
Tungsten? thats another idea...
John P.

what about restoring the edge for us? is titanium or tungsten gonna hone up or be able to be pasted back to keenness?

sam

Titanium can be scratched by tungsten and tungsten can only be scratched by diamonds, so honing or stropping should not be an issue as long as you're using the right materials. Here's a video of the durability of a tungsten ring for reference. I actually have one of these on order!

And I'm-a still waiting on measurements. Anyone help a guy out?

ok, im dense, so humor me. does that mean once the edge is there, it is permanent, as in stays the same from day 1 to use # 1 thousand? hey, if it never had to be sharpened and cost about the same as the club razor, and shaved great, im in, lol

sam

Not a dumb question. What it basically means is it will go a heck of a lot longer between shaves. Steel is still harder than your hair, tungsten just happens to be about 5 times harder than stainless. I don't know if that would exponentially extend the timeframe between having to strop/hone or if it would eliminate it altogether. I am thinking that at the very least this razor wouldn't be seeing the hone very often in your lifetime.

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

I have a reply from a vendor that is willing to give this a shot with tungsten, of all things. She's looking for information on specific measurements. I offered to send her a razor as a template, but I think they want a general idea so they can get to work on a bid. Anyone know the measurements of an average 6/8 for length and width? I already have the height :D

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Are you sure they're going to make a full blade (not just a razor) out of tungsten?

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

Not a dumb question. What it basically means is it will go a heck of a lot longer between shaves. Steel is still harder than your hair, tungsten just happens to be about 5 times harder than stainless. I don't know if that would exponentially extend the timeframe between having to strop/hone or if it would eliminate it altogether. I am thinking that at the very least this razor wouldn't be seeing the hone very often in your lifetime.

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I think the real issue will be whether it can be sharpened, even with diamond paste (maybe a diamond hone would work, but they're too coarse). And even if you could hone it, will you be able to make it sharp enough before pieces break off because of brittleness.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Are you sure they're going to make a full blade (not just a razor) out of tungsten?

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Yep, I made it extremely clear that I was looking for a straight razor blade, not an industrial cutting device or a safety razor. I provided her with some reference pictures and she's just waiting for measurements and the quantity I want her to run before she can provide more info. As for brittleness, not sure that would be an issue. I certainly can ask her, though.

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

Yep, I made it extremely clear that I was looking for a straight razor blade, not an industrial cutting device or a safety razor. I provided her with some reference pictures and she's just waiting for measurements and the quantity I want her to run before she can provide more info. As for brittleness, not sure that would be an issue. I certainly can ask her, though.

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I just saw that ring video. The ring was untouched by a metal file! There's no way you could work that edge. It would have to go to a lab. I guess that wouldn't be bad if you didn't have to do it very often.

Unfortunately, brittleness is an issue, because pieces of the edge can break off.

Okay, I thought of a couple other ideas on the way home from work. What about either disposable blades like what is done for the feather blades or a razor made out of titanium? That would be considerably lighter than steel, but you could hone it with a tungsten-carbide sharpener. Thoughts on these?

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

Okay, I thought of a couple other ideas on the way home from work. What about either disposable blades like what is done for the feather blades or a razor made out of titanium? That would be considerably lighter than steel, but you could hone it with a tungsten-carbide sharpener. Thoughts on these?

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If you go disposable, tungsten is OK because you don't need to hone. All titanium will make a razor too expensive, as well as too light. There's no reason it can't be stell with a titanium front portion, assuming you can join them easily.

I recall reading (I do a lot of that) an article in some science magazine about a possible link between tungsten and aggressive tumor growth. I haven't a clue if tungsten is truly carcinogenic or not, but a web search will yield several government and news sites that are making implications. Of course, news sites love making implications. ;) Personally, I'd want just a little assurance before using tungsten on my face.

Here's just one government site linking tungsten to cancer (however, long-term internal exposure):
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/press/011505.html

However, I am interested in the alternative metal angle...

Re-inventing the wheel is why we now have 5-bladed razors. I think I'll stick to stainless and good ole L-6 steel. Part of the attraction to straights is the "oldness" of it all ;)

"Old ways are the best ways" - Tom Stoppard

That said, I'm curious to see what is found out. I'd have thought the Titanium a better idea than the Tungsten, but guess who's NOT an engineer. Remember the Damascus? They're out there and some guys like 'em.

X

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Originally Posted by Hungryboxerdog

I recall reading (I do a lot of that) an article in some science magazine about a possible link between tungsten and aggressive tumor growth. I haven't a clue if tungsten is truly carcinogenic or not, but a web search will yield several government and news sites that are making implications. Of course, news sites love making implications. ;) Personally, I'd want just a little assurance before using tungsten on my face.

Here's just one government site linking tungsten to cancer (however, long-term internal exposure):
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/press/011505.html

However, I am interested in the alternative metal angle...

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Weapons grade anything is usually mixed with depleted uranium. There are also known issues with thoriated tungsten and TIG welding. Tungsten by itself or mixed with nickel is inert and will not cause a problem, which is why it can be used in jewelry.

Bill, I most certainly agree that the old ways are the best, and that's why I'm getting into this hobby in the first place. No harm in seeing how one can tinker with this.

As for the damascus steel, it does hold an edge a lot better than regular steel but it also looks extremely cool. I've been hunting around for a damascus lockback on e-bay for a while now... Anyway, I now have some measurements on a 6/8 Boker and I'm going to shoot those off to the company to see what they can do for us.

You know, we just shot past the most likely alternatives. There are all sorts of incredible new steels ot there that haven't even been thought about. People are experimenting with other cutlery, but razors?

I bet there are plenty of guys here who can think of some interesting steels. Bill Ellis?

This talk about Damascus steel just brought me back to it. That stuff is ancient. It goes back to the days before we could make furnaces hot enough to smelt steel. Yet, it's hard to beat in razors. Talk about liking what's old!

mgraepel, if they are serious to make this test batch, I sure want one to test... I think it's important to have "worldwide" test results:) Send one over here...

Nenad

Okay, looks like the last few steps here. I'm posting directly the information I received from American Cutting Edge. It looks like they want a blade to use as a template, so here's your chance to put in your own thoughts regarding this. What size blade do you want and is there a specific shape you would be interested? If somebody would be willing to send in an agreed-upon size, I'll get an address and we'll go from there.

I have reviewed the information and also asked our technical team the questions you posed and for the first, here is the response I received:

Tungsten Carbide is not really hazardous in the state our customers use as blades.
Once the carbide is sintered, it is a relatively inert substance.

It can be dangerous in it's "green" state (before sintering) or to the people who process or grind carbide.
Material Safety Data Sheets will recommend grinding carbide in well ventilated area with the proper use of dust masks.

As for the edge of a carbide blade, it will last sometimes up to three hundred times the life of a carbon steel blade, depending on the cutting application.

These blades are resharpenable, generally, up to 6 times, depending on widths you can withstand.

For us to accurately quote this blade I will need either a sample blade sent to me or a more detailed drawing given.

Please give me your company information as requested for our database and advise on how to proceed.

A 5/8 round tip is probably the most generic, user-friendly blade.

Sounds good to me. Remember, this blade is going to be considerably heavier than a regular 5/8ths, so a full-sized meat chopper would probably be really unwieldy. Does anyone have any detailed diagrams of a 5/8ths round tip or have a blade they would be willing to ship out? Or is there another thought on size? Also, does anyone think that any vendors like Ray would be interested in carrying these or should I not bother emailing him?

I think a 6/8 is a better size. :rolleyes:

So there are only two opinions on blade size? I'd like to think more people would have input...

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

Also, does anyone think that any vendors like Ray would be interested in carrying these or should I not bother emailing him?

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I'd definitely e-mail Ray and John Crowley (straightrazorsandstuff.com).