Help with JNAT

Hello Gents: I'm a newbie to this site and a newbie to JNATs. But I THINK I know how to sharpen, as I've been told by many that "my razor sharp is your about halfway there". Typically at the back end I use a Shapon melon, Shapton Cream, and then finish with .01um diamond film.

I was reading a story from Norse mythology about a sword so sharp that a single golden hair dropped across its edge would part without being disturbed in its fall. (Un)fortunately, reading that story coincided with a growing desire to learn to sharpen just that much better, and with a growing fascination with natural hones. As with most men, such a thing means that I need to buy tools. :D

First, I tried black and translucent arkansas stones. Then I got what a very sweet deal on an Ohira Suita. Then (and this is where it all goes wrong), I decided to stick a blade under my kids microscope. :gaah: At this point, I can say the Ohira Suita was a good deal. Almost as fine the Shapton 8k, but fast enough that I go directly from a DMT Red to a final edge before the diamond film. "Doing it all over", I could have bought the jnat for less than the shapton red+melon+cream. I ALSO found that the Shapton cream leaves much coarser scratches than the melon. Waste of $$$? :shrug: Either way, I want to do better than what the melon or the Ohira can do.

So, I take a very deep breath, and buy a :dropjaw: priced Nakayama stone from a reputable dealer (with a return policy). He advertises this stone as having the highest rating of fineness and darn near highest rating on speed. It is fast. It is not, however, as fine as the 8k Shapton. It is also marginally, but detectably, less sharp than w/the shapton. Given the cost of this thing, that's disturbing. I would expect it to at least match the diamond film. I would expect hair to explode off, screaming in terror at the mere sight of a blade sharpened with a stone this pricey. Nagura slurry (it came with nagura of the same stone) speeds it up but doesn't appear to change the quality of edge.

This is a long winded first post, and here is the question. Is there some 'user error' around JNATS that could be preventing me from getting degree of polish I feel like I should expect for the $$$$? Do I have wrong expectations? Should I send it back? What do you advise?

Yes. I am learning a jnat as well. Its all in the slurry fron the naguras. I didnt do well with plain water off the 10k chosera. I have set bevels and went through 3 naguras to have an edge that in the scope looks scratchy. Im going to say that in the end this will work out. I had no problem with my coti, and film edges are very smooth and sharp. My naniwa 12 produces a great edge as does my chsera 10k.i just gptna suehiro 20k and it looks like it will be a great shave later. When they say its a rabbit hole, they mean it. Good luck.

Welcome to SRP. How long is the return policy good for ? Do you have more razors to test the stone ? I wonder if the seller actually honed razors on it, whether it was tested by him with chisels or plane blades ? A lot of the J-nats are devoted to tool sharpening. Sounds like you know enough from your experience with your other hones to accurately gauge the efficacy of the stone. If it is at the 8k level I would certainly send it back and, if you haven't already done so, let him know that you intend to hone razors with the replacement. Also, if it was me I would go by actual sharpness rather than scratch patterns.

Thanks for the responses. I will contact him, I just didn't want to say anything without getting other perspectives. I guess I should communicate to him that "I want the sharpest possible edge, full stop".

I do sharpen woodworking tools, razors, knives. When I go on campouts, I go ahead and shave with my pocket knife in order to demonstrate to the scouts how sharp they should keep their blades. So for me, it's not really important WHAT I'm sharpening, or to distinguish between tool types. Unless its an axe, I want the sharpest possible edge achievable by man--and that's it and that all.

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

I do sharpen woodworking tools, razors, knives.

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The only sharpening I do is my pocket knife (Arkansas stones) , kitchen knives (DMT diamond plate), and razors. Personally I never would hone knives or tools on an expensive razor hone, but that is just me. You pays your money and you use it like you want to. :)

I'd recommend not ignorantly throwing money at something without knowing what that money is getting you. Jnats are not a linear price-performance thing, especially when throwing around the name Nakayama.

You would have been much better off talking to the seller about the finest razor stone and see what they'd recommend. Descriptions are generic on some sites and the best way to choose a stone is communication ith the seller, assuming you can't test in person.

Also bear in mind Jnats are not a simple fixed grit size...their particles, the story goes, are brokn down into thinner and smaller flakes that acts as a progressively finer finisher. If you're depending on the top of the stone (did you lap it flat and polish it? Just checking), you may not be squeezing the potential out of it. It's not an Arkansas or a Shapton or Coticule and doesn't behave the same way.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The only sharpening I do is my pocket knife (Arkansas stones) , kitchen knives (DMT diamond plate), and razors. Personally I never would hone knives or tools on an expensive razor hone, but that is just me. You pays your money and you use it like you want to. :)

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Yeah, you know unless you're a professional shop, I suspect you could touch every blade in the possession of your entire extended family every day for the rest of your life and never run all the way through the hard finishing stones. Soft arkansas, 1000gr waterstones, even 140gr diamond stones will wear fast. That shapton melon stone I've had for a decade and use it all the time, and flatten frequently too. But I can't notice that I've taken off any appreciable thickness. The 1 now 2 jnats I have both THICK. So...not worried about that.

Teirdaen, thanks. You point out all the reasons I'm asking the question. I did consult with the seller, and this is the stone he recommended. Actually, he recommended 3 or 4, and most highly recommended the one I purchased. The guy has a very good reputation and is very easy to work with. So before going back to him with "well, this isn't really doing it for me", I want to be sure I'm not using the stone incorrectly.

The seller did lap and polish the top. Now, I haven't spent very time with it--just a brief half hour last night. Should I go through and, say, really spend some time sharpening the heck out of something to break the grit size down? Really get after it with the nagura? Something else?

I'm asking because, as you pointed out, they have the reputation of "not acting the same way". So I want to learn before badgering the seller. By the way, he offered to do a several month rotation of several stones. Which I may do...but that would do nothing useful if I am the problem.

I am going to say this and you probably will blow it off for quite sometime, then finally sometime in the future it will come together for you and the light will come on..


The difference between a SR and every other type of sharpening is that a SR has to be smooth also..

Everything else is honed to be sharp and to cut, a SR has to be sharp but still smooth, when you are sharpening using scratch patterns as a guide that tends to make for a harsh edge.. A good shaving edge has to be gently approached,,, basically, you sneak up on it..
It is just a slight change in the thought process and approach rather then a different technique on the hones..

The J-nats can be very frustrating especially when it comes to the scratch patterns as some of them leave a beautiful haze finish that will shave very smoothly you just have to see what works on your stone.. Then again it could be that the stone isn't capable of producing a fine edge :shrug:

Glen..awesome, this is the kind of discussion I came here for. SO...when you say "smooth" do you mean "polished" as in "shiny"? Or 'smooth' as in 'no tooth' on the edge?

I can tell you that prior to putting blades under the microscope, all my 'sharp' edges had 'tooth' despite being 'polished'. And by 'polished' I mean that under 500x mag, you can see no scratches at all, the surface is just an even grey, and mirror bright to the naked eye.

I am now using the microscope as a tool to help change the way I hold, press, stroke in order to elminate "tooth". But I'm not yet consistently there.

Jnats are naturals and vary greatly from stone to stone. Some work well with just a spritz of water, You can actually come off an 8k or 12k stone and get a great finished blade. Others do require some tweaking, by using Nagura's. It just depends on the stone. Some are just duds, and there's lot's of them. Jnats have become so popular, many are counterfeited, especially the stamps. Demand creates this. Spending thousands of dollars on a high priced Nakayama Maruka, or other does not guarantee you a good stone. It guarantees the seller more money in his bank account. Read my blog here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...uying-101.html

I mean, How do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's the real deal? It's a crap shoot, unless you know the dealer, or have a degee in Geology or Jnatology. I can tell you stories that would send you running for the hills, and you'd probably only buy synthetic finishers for the rest of your life, and I'm talking about reputable sellers. Speaking of which, You can get the new Suehiro Gokymyo 20k stone which is a fantastic Japanese finisher. However, if your only 1/2 way there. I'd wait. You need to have killer edges at the 8k and above level to use it.

I think there's a certain romance or mystique around Jnats, People are just drawn to them. I know guys that have enough to build a spare bedroom on their house. How do you use all those stones? I have a few and usually use the same one. Now, the one I like is a Nakayama Maruichi Asag shown below in it's pristine state. I knew a guy in Japan, He was a mod on this forum a while ago. Several of us got great stones off him at reasonable prices. My stone likes hard steel, like Sheffields. It doesn't like Dovo's, so that's a factor. Nagura's, like a Kiita will help. Tomo Nagura or slurry generated from my stone does not work well with all razors. So, it's trial and error. I wish you the best of luck, and look into that 20k synthetic stone.

ZIB, thanks. So you raise a couple of important points. I don't REALLY care if the stone comes from Japan, or Sheboygan. Actually, I'd be THRILLED if someone came along with equivalent stones quarried in the US.

What I was hoping to pay for was a certain performance. Which leads me to the Suehiro stone (and other reading around this forum). There is a question I have about sharpening razors as opposed to other tools. That is: why would you finish on a stone (any stone) that had a lesser grit than 1/2micron stropping compound? Could you walk me through that? And note my presupposition, which may be entirely wrong: that after the bevel is set (ie, keeness is determined), and steel is chosen (i.e., minimun carbide grain size selected), the only relevant factor in sharpness is grit size--ie, the size of the tooth on the final edge. Or, put another way, any grit larger than the carbide grain size in the steel is not small enough for the 'ultimate' edge. Is that not the case?

I'm not educated when it comes to microns and all of that. I lay the razor on the stone and do my thing. If it is good it is good and if it is not I keep at it. I was thinking in regard to your J-nat though, a honemeister talking to me about Eschers, told me to take the razor to 12 or 16k before going to the Escher.

If you were to go up in grit, say with your film if that is the next step following the 8k, shave test, then go to the J-nat and see if the following shave test is improved. Just a thought.

I would be thrilled to if the U.S actually made some high end stones. I'm sure a lot of us would....

You my friend sound like a wood worker, correct? I had a good friend on here a while ago, sent me some beautiful pieces of wood to make scales out of, which I never did. It's still in the workshop, Project #107 or something like that.

Did you read Glen's (Gssixgun) post about smoothness? That's what this is all about. Not how keen we can get it, or how sharp, but that delicate balance inbetween. That's where the magic is. If you can get a razor deadly sharp, and still shave like a velvet squegee, than you need to be honing professionally, or just enjoy your killer shaves.

I think performance does draw people to Jnats. They're legandary for that. That new Suehiro seems to deliver. As far the stropping compounds and grit sizes, I think, and I could be wrong that it has do with smoothness. Some of them leave a very very harsh edge, like Diamond compound for instance. When you get to the .25 stuff.

You saying that stones can't come close to the stropping compounds in terms of fineness? They have a much smaller grit? Again, i would say smoothness....

Is that what your talking about? I work nights, and just got up, my brain is not fully awake, still drinking coffee....:needcoffee:

Thanks Jimmy....

BTW, I'm with Jimmy, I'm not up on all the grit sizes and terms, etc...but I'll still try to help you the best I can.

Performance varies by the stone, the naguras and the steel. As was said, some steels do better than others on these stones. I have been fooling around for a few weeks with a jnat. It all depends what you want from it and how much time you are willing to put into it. Yesterday I spent 45 minutes aftert the bevel on three nagura progression. I wont know til later how the shave will be. 45 minutes after the bevel is a long time. I hear stories about working a single nagura for 30 minutes. I got my suehiro yesterday and was done honing in under 15 minutes bevel to strop. To me its a challenge and maybe it will work out , maybe not. If you want a very keen edge easily and repeatable, try al/oxide lapping film. Set your bevel and do 40 laps on 3 micron film, then 40 on 1 micron film. It ALWAYS works. Every time. I happen to like the stone element that's why Im here to learn the art of it. The Japanese say one hour to learn, a lifetime to master and I believe that. Im getting close to what I used to get with film and I will continue til I get it. In the end my stone may not deliver wat I want from it but with naturals, you have to pay to play. And forget the scope on naturals. It works great on synthetics as you look for the most polished edge and that's what you want. Naturals all look scratchy on the scope. Cnat,jnat, coti etc. What I used it for was to find a well defined bevel which I was able to see, other than that, forget it IMO.

P.S.

Another thing. A lot of razor guys are fanatical about stones and wouldn't even consider using pastes or sprays. I know many of them. They're purists I guess, nothing wrong with that. And...Many of them feel that using sparys and pastes is cheating in a way, imho. (not that there's anything wrong with that. I don't want to start a war here) I use them from time to time....

And...Well said Bill.....


Where's Stefan.....? AKA Mainaman.....

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Originally Posted by zib

P.S.

Another thing. A lot of razor guys are fanatical about stones and wouldn't even consider using pastes or sprays. I know many of them. They're purists I guess, nothing wrong with that. And...Many of them feel that using sparys and pastes is cheating in a way, imho..

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I resemble that remark ...... :D Actually like Rich said, nothing wrong with using pastes/sprays, some of the top notch honemeisters do some of the time. I just like to keep it simple and see how far I can go on stones alone. So far it is far enough for me.

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

.. and then finish with .01um diamond film.

I would expect it to at least match the diamond film. I would expect hair to explode off, screaming in terror at the mere sight of a blade sharpened with a stone this pricey. Nagura slurry (it came with nagura of the same stone) speeds it up but doesn't appear to change the quality of edge.

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IMO a Jnat should not be expected to behave like film. They work differently in the first place, and then naturals (bar Coticules AFAIK) have no grit ratings. Setting expectations(not saying that you do) for a hone to perform like something it is not is setting up for a disappointment.

Particularly about your stone, before you consider contacting the seller may be consider sending the stone off to some one that has experience with Jnats to test and give you feedback. All that being said, as already pointed out above, there are variations between Jnats, and it is very possible your hone is not quite the razor hone. It is also possible the hone requires more technique to get the best out of it.
In general fast stones are not that fine, there are exceptions but not many.

Bill, thanks for that advance on the scope and naturals. If you like film, you should go to Tools for Working Wood: Welcome and pick up the .1 micron diamond film. So far, I have not found anything that sharpens better. What I want is to get better than that, however.

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

ZIB, thanks. So you raise a couple of important points. I don't REALLY care if the stone comes from Japan, or Sheboygan. Actually, I'd be THRILLED if someone came along with equivalent stones quarried in the US.

What I was hoping to pay for was a certain performance. Which leads me to the Suehiro stone (and other reading around this forum). There is a question I have about sharpening razors as opposed to other tools. That is: why would you finish on a stone (any stone) that had a lesser grit than 1/2micron stropping compound? Could you walk me through that? And note my presupposition, which may be entirely wrong: that after the bevel is set (ie, keeness is determined), and steel is chosen (i.e., minimun carbide grain size selected), the only relevant factor in sharpness is grit size--ie, the size of the tooth on the final edge. Or, put another way, any grit larger than the carbide grain size in the steel is not small enough for the 'ultimate' edge. Is that not the case?

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The Suehiro is rated 0.5 micron, not sure why they rate it 20k grit though. In any case the particle size is what matters.

We have discussed the edge refinement a lot but I am not sure there has ever been agreement about what exactly happens. We know that lower grit hones such as Coticules leave very nice edge on a razor for example. We know that jnat slurry particles are ~2 microns in diameter, but they are flat (we do not know how thick though). We do not know exactly how fine they can break down to but we know they leave very smooth edge with very shallow scratch pattern. So in a sense the size of the abrasive particle is not all that goes into the edge performance and feel as far as shaving is concerned.

Stefan, that's a great idea. My expectation was set by the reading around that I've done which suggests (and in some cases comes right out and says) that there are not yet any commercially available abrasives that are as fine as the finest jnats. That, and I once witnessed what was for me a legendary feat.

I had the privilege of witnessing a distressingly old japanese carpenter do some work. Specifically, he was shaving endgrain off of a cypress log with a block plane. This is something I know a lot about, and I can promise you that there is simply not a more rigourous test of sharpness than shaving endgrain off a conifer and leaving a deep, glassy surface. A western blade sharpened at 8k is 'so good'. Sharpen that blade on .1um diamond film, and it's noticeably better. By 'noticeably better' I mean you can take a somewhat thicker shaving and still get that glassy finish. A good japanese plane blade is noticeably better than those two.

This carpenter however, was taking shockingly thick shavings. He was taking shavings you just simply cannot get using the above methods without leaving a not so great surface. But he was taking these incredible shaving AND leaving a surface that looked like it had already been shellaced and laquered. Those of us watching were just dumbfounded. Every 5 or 6 strokes, he'd pull out the blade and go to his natural stone--a stone that for all the world looked like flat top doorstop.

I know woodworkers that can sharpen better than I on artificial materials. They can't do that. I want to do that: that's the grail. If I can get that edge, chances are I'll lather up face, look in the mirror, pick up the razor, and my beard will just say "ah...what's the point" and fall right into the sink without any further ado!

I'll read the smoothnesspost directly!

Stefan, thanks for the insight!

To the OP, when you asked gssixgun if he meant the feel of the shaving edge, as opposed to the scratch pattern when he mentioned smoothness ..... as Stefan said above, we are going for sharpness with that smooth feel to the shave. Early on in my straight razor shaving I was fortunate enough to be able to shave with razors honed by a variety of top notch honemeisters.

At the time, on SRP, there were members whose focus was a polished bevel. They wouldn't go up in grit (stones) until they had removed the entire scratch pattern from the previous grit. Seeing firsthand the work of the aforementioned honemeisters, I knew that scratch pattern wasn't the criteria. The sharpness/smoothness (for shaving) that the razor attained was the goal. IMHO. :chapeau

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

Bill, thanks for that advance on the scope and naturals. If you like film, you should go to Tools for Working Wood: Welcome and pick up the .1 micron diamond film. So far, I have not found anything that sharpens better. What I want is to get better than that, however.

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Film is utilitarian to me. It puts a good edge on but you are limited as the film can tear and scratch. I dont want to be stuck doing straight laps. With a hone you can do many different strokes and the hone is always its grit as oppossed to film which wears out. And its a pride of ownership type of thing. I dont regret buying any of my hones. Its a hobby that I enjoy.IMO my best film edges have come off 1 micron. Below that I have found to be harsh and fragile. YMMV.

Bill, I concur. This is the other reason I want an alternative to that film. It gets cut and torn to easily. But until I find that alternate...it's the bomb.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

.. So in a sense the size of the abrasive particle is not all that goes into the edge performance and feel as far as shaving is concerned.

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+1 to this.
I find grit size to mean very little. Some of the very small abrasives are very hard and will leave a "toothy" edge, whereas larger, rounded abrasives will give a smoother edge.

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

Bill, I concur. This is the other reason I want an alternative to that film. It gets cut and torn to easily. But until I find that alternate...it's the bomb.

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First shave off the suehiro gokumyo 20k. Its as good as any film edge Ive ever had and this is the first one i honed. Set on chosera 3, then 5,10 and suehiro 20. 40 webbing 60 roo strop. Perfect. 2 pass and little touchup bbs.

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Originally Posted by str8fencer

+1 to this.
I find grit size to mean very little. Some of the very small abrasives are very hard and will leave a "toothy" edge, whereas larger, rounded abrasives will give a smoother edge.

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Interesting observation. Brings to mind what I've read about the coticule. The garnets are sort of large compared to the abrasives in other stones, and the shape, rhomboid IIRC, lends itself to giving a more gentle and forgiving edge than some other hones.

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Originally Posted by str8fencer

+1 to this.
I find grit size to mean very little. Some of the very small abrasives are very hard and will leave a "toothy" edge, whereas larger, rounded abrasives will give a smoother edge.

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I think you're right. Wife and I had a long conversation last night, and as usual I needed something for my hands to do. So I got the stone and a blade and absentmindedly circled it around the stone for I don't know how long. Shaved with this morning, and OH MY! Whether the secret is time or slurry I don't know, but I'm pretty happy now.

J.G.
This has been a really helpful post, and I hope the stone works out for you. For the Jnats I find it helpful to remember that these stones really are different from one to the next, just like the Coticules or Arkansas's are within the various veins. You could say that each particular stone has a personality that is unique. This is both good and bad. Good if you like learning by doing, but bad if you are expecting to "buy and edge" from a stone.

The natural stones from Japan's consistent character is that they expect you to learn from them, to learn how to unlock their abilities and subtleties. This can be frustrating and a long process for some, it might even take a few weeks to figure out a stone, the slurry and the nagura. If you just happened late last night to create a good edge in your second honing attempt, you might have lucked out, or you might have some inherent honing skills. But at least you got over the hump.


If you want you can use your natural stones under a faucet you do you can polish the blade to a fairly high polish. This is because any loose slurry of loose grit is taken off the table before it has a chance to scratch the blade. With Jnats it is the slurry that gives the blade a matte finish because the grit particles are of a multitude of sizes, they are loose to float around and they break and cleave as they are tumbled against each other under the weight of the blade creating friction. Also their scratches are short and intermitent I think that this varied scratch pattern could be one reason that edges can hold up under use. I hope you have many good shave ahead.

Keep it up, Alx

Alx, thanks! I think I've got the bug. I've got enough sharpening stuff that at a moments notice I can put on an edge that's good enough for almost anything--save a few specialized applications in tough materials. "Shaving" is ok, so I'm looking forward to developing better skills. But I don't need to a buy an edge as you put.

Thus I'm definitely in the camp of guys who want to try and experiment and learn and work with. I just found a website called easternsmooth that is chock full of fascinating information. It tells me I need to learn about nagura.

An interesting thread, which brings me back to the adage that, all naturals are or can be different from one side to the other, let alone from one to another.

The other day I went to a stone yard to select some granite slabs for a project. We had selected a particular stone for color and were going to pick the individual slabs that would be used.

The 5-6 slabs of that stone in the “public” section of the yard that we were shown were nothing like the samples in color. This yard has thousands of slabs, they are cut, tagged and stacked on edge as they were cut from the stone, much like wood veneers.

The yard man said they had more of the same stone, probably cut from the same rock in another nonpublic part of the yard. He took us there and showed us more slabs some of which looked exactly like the sample.

All the slabs are coded and sequentially tagged so they can tell you from which rock and where in the cutting each slab came from. All the slabs we saw of that particular granite came from the same rock but were dramatically different in color. According to his tagging inventory, the pieces we ultimately selected, exactly matching the sample were less than 10 inches apart in the rock. Add to that the color varied from within the slab from one end to the other.

So if something as distinguishing as color changes as a result of mineral content in the forming process, absolutely something subjectively minute as cutting/polishing ability can and is impacted by the same random mineral placement.

This for me was a very dramatic example of what I knew in my dealing with naturals. If you get the opportunity to visit a stone yard it is a very interesting place, I also came away with some “Free Samples” for honing film from my new BFF the yardman.

To the OP, honing for razors is as you are discovering much different that sharpening tools. I have done both, much of what you know can and may translate, but this is a case of the more you know the more you realize how much you don’t know.

Slicing wood and slicing hair…from your face, are two completely different worlds.

Enjoy the ride.

Euclid,

you nailed an issue (issue: Hah!!) for me. Variability of nature, the surprise factor, is the very thing making these things fascinating to me. Somehow, the tantalizing prospect of finding something from nature that could be better than man made, the search for it, is more fun than actually getting the job done.

Yes, my friend. That is called HAD.

Welcome to the club.