Thread: Help with JNAT

Hello Gents: I'm a newbie to this site and a newbie to JNATs. But I THINK I know how to sharpen, as I've been told by many that "my razor sharp is your about halfway there". Typically at the back end I use a Shapon melon, Shapton Cream, and then finish with .01um diamond film.

I was reading a story from Norse mythology about a sword so sharp that a single golden hair dropped across its edge would part without being disturbed in its fall. (Un)fortunately, reading that story coincided with a growing desire to learn to sharpen just that much better, and with a growing fascination with natural hones. As with most men, such a thing means that I need to buy tools.

First, I tried black and translucent arkansas stones. Then I got what a very sweet deal on an Ohira Suita. Then (and this is where it all goes wrong), I decided to stick a blade under my kids microscope. At this point, I can say the Ohira Suita was a good deal. Almost as fine the Shapton 8k, but fast enough that I go directly from a DMT Red to a final edge before the diamond film. "Doing it all over", I could have bought the jnat for less than the shapton red+melon+cream. I ALSO found that the Shapton cream leaves much coarser scratches than the melon. Waste of $$$? Either way, I want to do better than what the melon or the Ohira can do.

So, I take a very deep breath, and buy a priced Nakayama stone from a reputable dealer (with a return policy). He advertises this stone as having the highest rating of fineness and darn near highest rating on speed. It is fast. It is not, however, as fine as the 8k Shapton. It is also marginally, but detectably, less sharp than w/the shapton. Given the cost of this thing, that's disturbing. I would expect it to at least match the diamond film. I would expect hair to explode off, screaming in terror at the mere sight of a blade sharpened with a stone this pricey. Nagura slurry (it came with nagura of the same stone) speeds it up but doesn't appear to change the quality of edge.

This is a long winded first post, and here is the question. Is there some 'user error' around JNATS that could be preventing me from getting degree of polish I feel like I should expect for the $$$$? Do I have wrong expectations? Should I send it back? What do you advise?

Yes. I am learning a jnat as well. Its all in the slurry fron the naguras. I didnt do well with plain water off the 10k chosera. I have set bevels and went through 3 naguras to have an edge that in the scope looks scratchy. Im going to say that in the end this will work out. I had no problem with my coti, and film edges are very smooth and sharp. My naniwa 12 produces a great edge as does my chsera 10k.i just gptna suehiro 20k and it looks like it will be a great shave later. When they say its a rabbit hole, they mean it. Good luck.

Welcome to SRP. How long is the return policy good for ? Do you have more razors to test the stone ? I wonder if the seller actually honed razors on it, whether it was tested by him with chisels or plane blades ? A lot of the J-nats are devoted to tool sharpening. Sounds like you know enough from your experience with your other hones to accurately gauge the efficacy of the stone. If it is at the 8k level I would certainly send it back and, if you haven't already done so, let him know that you intend to hone razors with the replacement. Also, if it was me I would go by actual sharpness rather than scratch patterns.

Thanks for the responses. I will contact him, I just didn't want to say anything without getting other perspectives. I guess I should communicate to him that "I want the sharpest possible edge, full stop".

I do sharpen woodworking tools, razors, knives. When I go on campouts, I go ahead and shave with my pocket knife in order to demonstrate to the scouts how sharp they should keep their blades. So for me, it's not really important WHAT I'm sharpening, or to distinguish between tool types. Unless its an axe, I want the sharpest possible edge achievable by man--and that's it and that all.

Originally Posted by jgjgjg

I do sharpen woodworking tools, razors, knives.

The only sharpening I do is my pocket knife (Arkansas stones) , kitchen knives (DMT diamond plate), and razors. Personally I never would hone knives or tools on an expensive razor hone, but that is just me. You pays your money and you use it like you want to.

I'd recommend not ignorantly throwing money at something without knowing what that money is getting you. Jnats are not a linear price-performance thing, especially when throwing around the name Nakayama.

You would have been much better off talking to the seller about the finest razor stone and see what they'd recommend. Descriptions are generic on some sites and the best way to choose a stone is communication ith the seller, assuming you can't test in person.

Also bear in mind Jnats are not a simple fixed grit size...their particles, the story goes, are brokn down into thinner and smaller flakes that acts as a progressively finer finisher. If you're depending on the top of the stone (did you lap it flat and polish it? Just checking), you may not be squeezing the potential out of it. It's not an Arkansas or a Shapton or Coticule and doesn't behave the same way.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The only sharpening I do is my pocket knife (Arkansas stones) , kitchen knives (DMT diamond plate), and razors. Personally I never would hone knives or tools on an expensive razor hone, but that is just me. You pays your money and you use it like you want to.

Yeah, you know unless you're a professional shop, I suspect you could touch every blade in the possession of your entire extended family every day for the rest of your life and never run all the way through the hard finishing stones. Soft arkansas, 1000gr waterstones, even 140gr diamond stones will wear fast. That shapton melon stone I've had for a decade and use it all the time, and flatten frequently too. But I can't notice that I've taken off any appreciable thickness. The 1 now 2 jnats I have both THICK. So...not worried about that.

Teirdaen, thanks. You point out all the reasons I'm asking the question. I did consult with the seller, and this is the stone he recommended. Actually, he recommended 3 or 4, and most highly recommended the one I purchased. The guy has a very good reputation and is very easy to work with. So before going back to him with "well, this isn't really doing it for me", I want to be sure I'm not using the stone incorrectly.

The seller did lap and polish the top. Now, I haven't spent very time with it--just a brief half hour last night. Should I go through and, say, really spend some time sharpening the heck out of something to break the grit size down? Really get after it with the nagura? Something else?

I'm asking because, as you pointed out, they have the reputation of "not acting the same way". So I want to learn before badgering the seller. By the way, he offered to do a several month rotation of several stones. Which I may do...but that would do nothing useful if I am the problem.

I am going to say this and you probably will blow it off for quite sometime, then finally sometime in the future it will come together for you and the light will come on..


The difference between a SR and every other type of sharpening is that a SR has to be smooth also..

Everything else is honed to be sharp and to cut, a SR has to be sharp but still smooth, when you are sharpening using scratch patterns as a guide that tends to make for a harsh edge.. A good shaving edge has to be gently approached,,, basically, you sneak up on it..
It is just a slight change in the thought process and approach rather then a different technique on the hones..

The J-nats can be very frustrating especially when it comes to the scratch patterns as some of them leave a beautiful haze finish that will shave very smoothly you just have to see what works on your stone.. Then again it could be that the stone isn't capable of producing a fine edge

Glen..awesome, this is the kind of discussion I came here for. SO...when you say "smooth" do you mean "polished" as in "shiny"? Or 'smooth' as in 'no tooth' on the edge?

I can tell you that prior to putting blades under the microscope, all my 'sharp' edges had 'tooth' despite being 'polished'. And by 'polished' I mean that under 500x mag, you can see no scratches at all, the surface is just an even grey, and mirror bright to the naked eye.

I am now using the microscope as a tool to help change the way I hold, press, stroke in order to elminate "tooth". But I'm not yet consistently there.