Thread: Help with JNAT

Jnats are naturals and vary greatly from stone to stone. Some work well with just a spritz of water, You can actually come off an 8k or 12k stone and get a great finished blade. Others do require some tweaking, by using Nagura's. It just depends on the stone. Some are just duds, and there's lot's of them. Jnats have become so popular, many are counterfeited, especially the stamps. Demand creates this. Spending thousands of dollars on a high priced Nakayama Maruka, or other does not guarantee you a good stone. It guarantees the seller more money in his bank account. Read my blog here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...uying-101.html

I mean, How do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's the real deal? It's a crap shoot, unless you know the dealer, or have a degee in Geology or Jnatology. I can tell you stories that would send you running for the hills, and you'd probably only buy synthetic finishers for the rest of your life, and I'm talking about reputable sellers. Speaking of which, You can get the new Suehiro Gokymyo 20k stone which is a fantastic Japanese finisher. However, if your only 1/2 way there. I'd wait. You need to have killer edges at the 8k and above level to use it.

I think there's a certain romance or mystique around Jnats, People are just drawn to them. I know guys that have enough to build a spare bedroom on their house. How do you use all those stones? I have a few and usually use the same one. Now, the one I like is a Nakayama Maruichi Asag shown below in it's pristine state. I knew a guy in Japan, He was a mod on this forum a while ago. Several of us got great stones off him at reasonable prices. My stone likes hard steel, like Sheffields. It doesn't like Dovo's, so that's a factor. Nagura's, like a Kiita will help. Tomo Nagura or slurry generated from my stone does not work well with all razors. So, it's trial and error. I wish you the best of luck, and look into that 20k synthetic stone.

ZIB, thanks. So you raise a couple of important points. I don't REALLY care if the stone comes from Japan, or Sheboygan. Actually, I'd be THRILLED if someone came along with equivalent stones quarried in the US.

What I was hoping to pay for was a certain performance. Which leads me to the Suehiro stone (and other reading around this forum). There is a question I have about sharpening razors as opposed to other tools. That is: why would you finish on a stone (any stone) that had a lesser grit than 1/2micron stropping compound? Could you walk me through that? And note my presupposition, which may be entirely wrong: that after the bevel is set (ie, keeness is determined), and steel is chosen (i.e., minimun carbide grain size selected), the only relevant factor in sharpness is grit size--ie, the size of the tooth on the final edge. Or, put another way, any grit larger than the carbide grain size in the steel is not small enough for the 'ultimate' edge. Is that not the case?

I'm not educated when it comes to microns and all of that. I lay the razor on the stone and do my thing. If it is good it is good and if it is not I keep at it. I was thinking in regard to your J-nat though, a honemeister talking to me about Eschers, told me to take the razor to 12 or 16k before going to the Escher.

If you were to go up in grit, say with your film if that is the next step following the 8k, shave test, then go to the J-nat and see if the following shave test is improved. Just a thought.

I would be thrilled to if the U.S actually made some high end stones. I'm sure a lot of us would....

You my friend sound like a wood worker, correct? I had a good friend on here a while ago, sent me some beautiful pieces of wood to make scales out of, which I never did. It's still in the workshop, Project #107 or something like that.

Did you read Glen's (Gssixgun) post about smoothness? That's what this is all about. Not how keen we can get it, or how sharp, but that delicate balance inbetween. That's where the magic is. If you can get a razor deadly sharp, and still shave like a velvet squegee, than you need to be honing professionally, or just enjoy your killer shaves.

I think performance does draw people to Jnats. They're legandary for that. That new Suehiro seems to deliver. As far the stropping compounds and grit sizes, I think, and I could be wrong that it has do with smoothness. Some of them leave a very very harsh edge, like Diamond compound for instance. When you get to the .25 stuff.

You saying that stones can't come close to the stropping compounds in terms of fineness? They have a much smaller grit? Again, i would say smoothness....

Is that what your talking about? I work nights, and just got up, my brain is not fully awake, still drinking coffee....

Thanks Jimmy....

BTW, I'm with Jimmy, I'm not up on all the grit sizes and terms, etc...but I'll still try to help you the best I can.

Performance varies by the stone, the naguras and the steel. As was said, some steels do better than others on these stones. I have been fooling around for a few weeks with a jnat. It all depends what you want from it and how much time you are willing to put into it. Yesterday I spent 45 minutes aftert the bevel on three nagura progression. I wont know til later how the shave will be. 45 minutes after the bevel is a long time. I hear stories about working a single nagura for 30 minutes. I got my suehiro yesterday and was done honing in under 15 minutes bevel to strop. To me its a challenge and maybe it will work out , maybe not. If you want a very keen edge easily and repeatable, try al/oxide lapping film. Set your bevel and do 40 laps on 3 micron film, then 40 on 1 micron film. It ALWAYS works. Every time. I happen to like the stone element that's why Im here to learn the art of it. The Japanese say one hour to learn, a lifetime to master and I believe that. Im getting close to what I used to get with film and I will continue til I get it. In the end my stone may not deliver wat I want from it but with naturals, you have to pay to play. And forget the scope on naturals. It works great on synthetics as you look for the most polished edge and that's what you want. Naturals all look scratchy on the scope. Cnat,jnat, coti etc. What I used it for was to find a well defined bevel which I was able to see, other than that, forget it IMO.

P.S.

Another thing. A lot of razor guys are fanatical about stones and wouldn't even consider using pastes or sprays. I know many of them. They're purists I guess, nothing wrong with that. And...Many of them feel that using sparys and pastes is cheating in a way, imho. (not that there's anything wrong with that. I don't want to start a war here) I use them from time to time....

And...Well said Bill.....


Where's Stefan.....? AKA Mainaman.....

Originally Posted by zib

P.S.

Another thing. A lot of razor guys are fanatical about stones and wouldn't even consider using pastes or sprays. I know many of them. They're purists I guess, nothing wrong with that. And...Many of them feel that using sparys and pastes is cheating in a way, imho..

I resemble that remark ...... Actually like Rich said, nothing wrong with using pastes/sprays, some of the top notch honemeisters do some of the time. I just like to keep it simple and see how far I can go on stones alone. So far it is far enough for me.

Originally Posted by jgjgjg

.. and then finish with .01um diamond film.

I would expect it to at least match the diamond film. I would expect hair to explode off, screaming in terror at the mere sight of a blade sharpened with a stone this pricey. Nagura slurry (it came with nagura of the same stone) speeds it up but doesn't appear to change the quality of edge.

IMO a Jnat should not be expected to behave like film. They work differently in the first place, and then naturals (bar Coticules AFAIK) have no grit ratings. Setting expectations(not saying that you do) for a hone to perform like something it is not is setting up for a disappointment.

Particularly about your stone, before you consider contacting the seller may be consider sending the stone off to some one that has experience with Jnats to test and give you feedback. All that being said, as already pointed out above, there are variations between Jnats, and it is very possible your hone is not quite the razor hone. It is also possible the hone requires more technique to get the best out of it.
In general fast stones are not that fine, there are exceptions but not many.

Bill, thanks for that advance on the scope and naturals. If you like film, you should go to Tools for Working Wood: Welcome and pick up the .1 micron diamond film. So far, I have not found anything that sharpens better. What I want is to get better than that, however.

Originally Posted by jgjgjg

ZIB, thanks. So you raise a couple of important points. I don't REALLY care if the stone comes from Japan, or Sheboygan. Actually, I'd be THRILLED if someone came along with equivalent stones quarried in the US.

What I was hoping to pay for was a certain performance. Which leads me to the Suehiro stone (and other reading around this forum). There is a question I have about sharpening razors as opposed to other tools. That is: why would you finish on a stone (any stone) that had a lesser grit than 1/2micron stropping compound? Could you walk me through that? And note my presupposition, which may be entirely wrong: that after the bevel is set (ie, keeness is determined), and steel is chosen (i.e., minimun carbide grain size selected), the only relevant factor in sharpness is grit size--ie, the size of the tooth on the final edge. Or, put another way, any grit larger than the carbide grain size in the steel is not small enough for the 'ultimate' edge. Is that not the case?

The Suehiro is rated 0.5 micron, not sure why they rate it 20k grit though. In any case the particle size is what matters.

We have discussed the edge refinement a lot but I am not sure there has ever been agreement about what exactly happens. We know that lower grit hones such as Coticules leave very nice edge on a razor for example. We know that jnat slurry particles are ~2 microns in diameter, but they are flat (we do not know how thick though). We do not know exactly how fine they can break down to but we know they leave very smooth edge with very shallow scratch pattern. So in a sense the size of the abrasive particle is not all that goes into the edge performance and feel as far as shaving is concerned.