Honing Frustration, and a question

Gents, as I posted in another thread I'm trying to 'touch up' a formerly shaving razor. I'm using what a very good JNAT...and it just ain't working for me. Most frustrating for me is that I can get a chisel to explode hair right above the skin with this very same stone--something the razor won't do.

Now, the razor improves markedly with stropping. Which raises a question of WHY stropping is necessary/useful? I've read the wiki and it explains THAT stropping is a necessity (okay, I believe it!). But, mechanically, WHY is the stropped edge better than the stoned edge? And is it? Always? necessarily?

Something odd about my razor. It's got a smile...but an odd one. If I am holding it right handed, with the blade towards me, the edge will sit absolutely flat on the stone. If I hold it right handed, edge away from me, the need for a 'rolling X' stroke is clearly visible: it will not sit flat. What is this telling about the blade geometry? Or am I subtly doing something wrong with grip/pressure/something?

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It's hard to say if it's technique or the stone (most likely technique) but still may be the stone.

A good jnat will either give a razor edge that won't need stripping or it will distort an edge if not used correctly. Now we just need to figure out if you have a good stone or bad technique although this is not an easy thing to do unless you know jnats well and have something to cross reference it too.

I found on some stones a reverse stropping stroke works better then a forward stroke. Less water is better on most although some love water. Even different steels like different Jnats. There are just soo many variables.

Does the stone produce a slurry when honing or do you need to create a slurry.
How much slurry is the stone producing (If it does) and are you making a slurry or just using the stones slurry produced from honing?
How quickly is the slurry turning black?
can you get a good shave from an 8k synthetic?

In the end only you can figure out how that stone performs best, This is why so many members get annoyed when newbies get Jnat. (Not having a go by any means)

FYI: Honing a chisel razor sharp doesn't mean the stone is razor friendly. I can get my chisels to cut hair on a 4K. I'm not going to finish my razor on a 4K

It really is hard to say but If stropping improves the edge I'm guessing your slurry is too heavy, too much water or who knows lol, also, try a stropping stroke as mentioned in my post above. i find the stropping stroke works on some of my stones better then a forward stroke.

In the end it really is hard to say what's going wrong without using the stone myself. You could always give it to me! Ill let you know how it goes! :P

Well, I'll try the stropped edge tomorrow. If it's not great, I'll try a synthetic 8k and let you know.

So strange to me. With every other edge tool I have, stropping positively degrades the edges off this stone.

If its not great you should be using the 8k or 4k before even thinking of the jnat. Make sure you can start to cut hairs at the 4k and it should be cutting well by the 8K.

There is no way i would be going to the jnat before this.

Could be slightly too much pressure. In really good light is there a shiny line at the very edge of your bevel on either side? Cause you could slightly be rolling the steel over creating a Burr and your strop knocks it off. I know when I very first started honing that was one thing I had to learn how to deal with. And mine was from 2 different things: first was slightly too much pressure and second was from over honing.

Like everyone here has told me several times (and eventually figured out exactly what they meant) "less is more" and enough "time and experience is a requirement in honing". The only way I can explain those quotes is you have to know your equipment. Know (within a few laps) how Many laps it's gonna take on each hone to get the job done before you even wet your hones.

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Originally Posted by Brighty83

If its not great you should be using the 8k or 4k before even thinking of the jnat. Make sure you can start to cut hairs at the 4k and it should be cutting well by the 8K.

There is no way i would be going to the jnat before this.

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When you say shaving @ 4k do you mean "bald patches on the arm"?

Also, back before we had synthetics, what was the honing sequence people used? I'm thinking of course of all those clean shaven Romans.

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Originally Posted by Swerve

Could be slightly too much pressure. In really good light is there a shiny line at the very edge of your bevel on either side? Cause you could slightly be rolling the steel over creating a Burr and your strop knocks it off. I know when I very first started honing that was one thing I had to learn how to deal with. And mine was from 2 different things: first was slightly too much pressure and second was from over honing.

Like everyone here has told me several times (and eventually figured out exactly what they meant) "less is more" and enough "time and experience is a requirement in honing". The only way I can explain those quotes is you have to know your equipment. Know (within a few laps) how Many laps it's gonna take on each hone to get the job done before you even wet your hones.

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I can appreciate this. With my other tools the move from synthetics to jnats was a learning curve. As was the move from arky stones to synthetics. It's why I'm asking questions so aggressively: Trying to glean out the critical but seemingly unimportant bits.

Any thoughts abou the blade sitting flat on one side but not the other?

Put your blade on something truly flat like a piece of glass and take some pictures, we love pictures!
Take some of your stones too!

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

When you say shaving @ 4k do you mean "bald patches on the arm"?

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It should be cutting arm hairs, not nicely but it should be cutting

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

Also, back before we had synthetics, what was the honing sequence people used? I'm thinking of course of all those clean shaven Romans.

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I have no idea of what was happing thousands of years ago but i do know that every country seems to have there course and finishing stone. Japan has the aoto, nagara, amakusa and the triditional jnats that everyone knows about.

Coticule stones were imported to Rome.

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Originally Posted by Brighty83

If its not great you should be using the 8k or 4k before even thinking of the jnat. Make sure you can start to cut hairs at the 4k and it should be cutting well by the 8K.

There is no way i would be going to the jnat before this.

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Brighty, thanks and that's what I'll today. I was able to shave with it succesfully this morning... but 'successful' is not 'comfortable'.

Also tried something else new this morning, and discovered that the first guy to rub an Alum block over his face must have been one tough, masochistic, mother!

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Originally Posted by Brighty83

I have no idea of what was happing thousands of years ago but i do know that every country seems to have there course and finishing stone. Japan has the aoto, nagara, amakusa and the triditional jnats that everyone knows about.

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By the way, my jnat collection consists of an aoto, a Ohira suita that suspect is an 8k ish stone, and a few 'finishers'. I'm thinking of using that sequence prior to devolving to the shaptons. I'm on an all natural kick! Hey, I even waited to start until I could find a razor with wood scales!

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Coticule stones were imported to Rome.

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You know, I chuckle every time I hear 20 and 30 somethings referring to 'the global economy' and 'things are different now' and 'the interconnected world'. The Greeks were trading tin with Celts as far back as we have records, silk travelled almost halfway around the world. While it was, admittedly, quite rare, there are archeological instances where indians in far north North America had relics from South America.

We've always been a global people!

I have an ohira suita level 4 stone that I use after the 1k with a heavy dmt slurry and dilute down as Im working it. Then after that I use a finisher (you can finish on this stone but its a coti like shave sharp but I like it sharper) break 2 tomo or light dmt slurries and Im done. ANd I mean very light slurry, something that breaks down and changes color fast.

Hi jgjgjg;
I am trying to understand what you are doing and maybe have missed something. The razor used had a shave ready edge that needed touch up correct? You say you have a very fine J-nat. How did you determine this?
MIke

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Originally Posted by MODINE

Hi jgjgjg;
I am trying to understand what you are doing and maybe have missed something. The razor used had a shave ready edge that needed touch up correct? You say you have a very fine J-nat. How did you determine this?
MIke

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Yes, that's correct.

Stone: 2 things. First, it gives truly superlative edges on other tools. It takes longer, but give edges that are, for example, better than the .25 micron diamond film sold by Lee Valley. Secondly, it was sold to me by a member of this site who is a stone vendor and whose reputation is widely respected on this site. He claims to have shaved, comfortably, directly off this particular stone.

I suspect it's a combination of newbie technique on my part, and the one-sided smile on the other that's hurting me.

By the way, this razor for whatever reason REALLY doesn't like the shapton 8k.

The real issue I'm having is that I can't use feedback. I'll take half a dozen strokes and to the hair test, and it'll begin looking hopeful. Then half a dozen more that look and feel the same, test again and it's regressed. Half a dozen more, and it seems to get better, then regresses, etc.

My arms and legs look like I'm ready to go on the Tour de France.

As mentioned earlier it could be a good “base” stone for chisels and tools. 20 to 30 light X strokes water only (no slurry, no nagura) on a quality J-nat razor finisher should significantly improve the razors edge.
Mike

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

By the way, this razor for whatever reason REALLY doesn't like the shapton 8k. Really Really odd

The real issue I'm having is that I can't use feedback. Not Understanding this at all perhaps some more explanation is in order

I'll take half a dozen strokes and to the hair test, and it'll begin looking hopeful. Then half a dozen more that look and feel the same, test again and it's regressed. Half a dozen more, and it seems to get better, then regresses, etc. Again this really makes no sense unless you are doing something very odd or the razor is out of whack

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Do you think we can see some pics of the razor showing the spine and the edge heel to toe on both sides what brand of razor is it ????

i think there is a spine/edge geometry issue. It needs to be fixed.

I have had a Joseph Elliots real hollow ground silver steel that the spine was bubbled out in the middle of the edge and even worse than that it was more bubbled on one side (the back). It took a lot of filling and honing on 220 grit and 325grit without the edge touching the hone to fix that razor. Several hours were involved with the file and hones before I could finish that razor up. By the time I was done it was really really close to a wedge. But it ended up being my friends favorite shaver.

It sucks not having Amy grinders or anything like that but doing all the work by hand really makes you appreciate any straight u work on. Especially older and harder steel containing ones.

Yes, I'll get some pics

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Do you think we can see some pics of the razor showing the spine and the edge heel to toe on both sides what brand of razor is it ????

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So I figured it out during the process of taking pics. I put a flashlight down onto a piece of white stone top, and put the razor on that to see if I could get pictures of where the light came through. And come through it did, only to reveal that this is not a 'one side flat one side curved' problem. It's a 'double smile' problem. A slight, no issues smile in the direction you typically think of, and a slight "uh oh" spine bent kind of smile. I don't if the pictures will show this enough for you to see, but it's there. Pretty much explains why stropping improves, but a stone is hinky.


So....who's a good razor doctor? Or, ahem, is this an excuse to drop some 'kaching' on a new razor?

Oohh...baby baby!

Attachment 145508

Ahem...okay, my razor. Fix it? Or sharpen it by starting with the whole blade on the stone and 'x' stroking it all the way off the stone, thus assuring that the whole blade contacts stone at some point in the stroke?

The side I THOUGHT was flat

Attachment 145509

The side I knew was curved

Attachment 145510

Spine picture

Attachment 145512

Okay, now I'm just showing off the hobby that brought me into this august circle of men in the first place!

Attachment 145516

A bent spine is a problem and I doubt it will help but you might try a rocking stroke. That's what works on smiles and by rocking I mean heel to toe. Also I can't get the pics on the app or on SRP website for some reason but.. Do you have a micrometer (dial or digital doesn't really matter) because if spine is real close to flat on one side but not on the other it could be bad hone wear or grinding. If im not mistaken your spine from one end to the other should only vary in thickness either .03" or .003" (it's in the wiki somewhere) just don't remember right off hand. Also the hone wear on the spine can tell u a lot (the hone wear on the spine should be even the while way across the spine from heel to toe and one side to the other) keep in mind I can't get the pics so these r just a shot in the dark for me, but I hope it helps and I also hope spine isn't bent on your razor. Anyway good luck with it.

Do you see the Thiers Issard picture, or not that one either? Curious if it's a photobucket issue.

A rolling X stroke will solve that honing issue, if you want a more even bevel then a 45° Heel Forward swooping X is going to achieve that.. I would use 1 layer of tape myself

Alternative approach

Grind the crap outta the spine attempting to even it all up, which would mean that the razor is "Correct" again, ugly as sin IMHO but even


Your choice

I see how the rolling x will solve the 'smiley' side, but how does it solve the 'frowny' side?

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

I see how the rolling x will solve the 'smiley' side, but how does it solve the 'frowny' side?

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It won't, You will

Reality Check

You have to figure out the "Honing Gymnastics" required to move that bevel Evenly and Equally across the hone, as you get that, the bevels will even up, they might never be perfect.

THIS is honing, many people love to talk big words on the forums "Honing is easy" "Hey it isn't rocket science" "Come on, razors have a built in guide"

Well honing is easy, right up until it isn't :p


More razors have small issues then razors that don't, perfectly straight razors are actually more rare.. This is exactly why anyone that hones a lot of razors tells you to always use a X stroke of some kind...

I think there are three tools here that apply:

1. An arkansas or ceramic round 'file'.
2. A razor doctor
3. A new razor.

I'm leaning towards 2, 3, or regrinding.

New razors are nice.

But wouldn't it be cool to say that you fixed a problem razor that you went from having no idea what was going on with it to feeling accomplished in fixing it when you go to shave with it and its awesome. I've not had a serious problem like this myself but if I did then I would try to fix it before I sent it out unless it was really really expensive or a one of a kind deal.

But of course new razors are nice....

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Originally Posted by cosperryan

New razors are nice.

But wouldn't it be cool to say that you fixed a problem razor that you went from having no idea what was going on with it to feeling accomplished in fixing it when you go to shave with it and its awesome. I've not had a serious problem like this myself but if I did then I would try to fix it before I sent it out unless it was really really expensive or a one of a kind deal.

But of course new razors are nice....

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I agree. I used to fix old chisels. Damn near every good, old (but I repeat myself) chisel you find at yard sales and ebay are bellied. Which is probably why they are 100 years old and not 1" long.

Then I figured out that grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding for hours on 60 grit sandpaper was my least favorite part of any hobby. Maybe I'll dedicate 15 minutes per side on my xx coarse atoma. If that fixes it, polishing up from there will be fast.

If that doesn't fix it....chock it up to experience.

Progress. I reground both sides, honed, stropped, got a better shave. Still too rough, and (very) uncomfortable against the grain on the moustache. BUt...progress.

Now, I'm making an error and could use some insight. One side cuts much better than the other. I know this is a 'honer error'. When you see this, does this mean that the stroke on the side that is cutting poorly is wrong, or the stroke on the side cutting will is wrong?

Edit: last night after posting ^^^^ I went back to the hone and spent a lot of time with only clear water and the lightest, most delicate possible touch I could use and still keep the blade on the stone. This morning I got a shave that was "good". Most importantly, it was comfortable. Room to improve, but what it lacked was, I'm sure, due to user error during the shave.

In any case: razor fixed, razor honed, problem fixed!!!

Now, on to learning how not to cut my strop.

I haven't ran into this but one of my converts has a real problem. He keeps lifting the spine of his razor while stroping. And it's time for me to go over a home with his razor. So is there a grit advised to start at for any of you honemeisters out there. Just to keep me from working back and then forward. He's gonna drop off 3 of his razors tomorrow that he has done this to. So a response asap would be appreciated.