Natural options for "1-8k work"

After looking at a Chinese natural hone which the seller claimed was 3k, getting some information on the new Muller hones from a member here, and playing with my Dragon Tongue (trying to use it to sharpen and hone dull knives) I've been thinking about natural stones other than finishers. Aside from the Coticle most of the time when I hear about natural stones it's about finishing stones, and often that's mentioned as a finisher too. Heck the only naturals I know anything about that aren't finishers (and some can be used as finishers anyway) are Cotis, BBWs, Dragon Tongues, and some Arkansas stones. Others I've heard of in passing, but never in much detail.

So what would be good natural hones for doing jobs for which one would normally turn use 1-8k synthetics? Bevel setting, sharpening, etc. I know some naturals have a big range depending on patience, pressure, slurry, etc. but I'm interested in stones that can do these jobs without a lot of tuning, prep or heavy slurry. In other words if you, personally, were going to buy different natural stones for repair work, bevel setting, sharpening, honing, etc. what would you pick up? It doesn't matter if it's one, two, or ten stones. I'm just curious what options you'd consider.

I want to learn more about natural stones. What's available, and what they're capable of beyond what I normally hear about. I mean when I first got into razor sharpening I spent a long time coveting a Belgian Blue because I was assured it was one of the best finishing stones around! Now I'm not thinking of actually buying a set of all-natural stones, but depending on what I learn I may be adjusting certain long-term plans.

We are talking a lot about natural finishers only, because their edges are friendly to the skin, where, most of the man made stones lack something there.
Naturals are slow. Much slower than man made ones, and that's why people are not very interested in them. Don't forget, they are just stones, made by nature to do what rocks do, not to hone our blades. They just happen to be used as hones. But the man made stones are made purely for honing, with the best attributes for this.
And, after trying some coarser naturals, it becomes obvious why they are not really preferred, aside from their finishing properties.
If you would like to try some of them, there are some Japanese like aoto, Amakusa etc, take a look at a vendor and you'll probably find some. From USA I know the Arkansas and the Pike stone (I think that's how it's called). From Europe, the Wastilla, some Spanish sandstones, Dalmore yellow from UK, Some other sandstones from Northern Italy, Pyrenees sandstone from France, etc. For the below 1000 grit stones, and maybe higher, sandstone is your best choice. And, since it's an abundant formation, find a shop that's selling marbles granites etc, and ask him to show you some types of sandstone. You don't have to pay 100$ for a piece, unless you like it a lot.

I have an oohira suits that works great after the 1k chosera with dmt slurry before my nakayama or ozuku finisher. Any natural with slurry can be brought down in grit. But my oohira really cuts fast.

1k natural that is reasonably fast and works for razors has not been discovered yet.
Coarse Jnats tend to chip edges, therefore not very useful.

If you set bevels on synthetic, then you can go the nagura route with jnats and cover the 1-8k gap. There are medium Jnats that can cover the gap as well.
You can also use coticule after bevel set and cover the gap as well.
Some people will also tell you that you can set bevel on coticule. For a typical razor, one that requires a good amount of work to get in working condition, this rote is a waste of time, it will take way too long.

There are other naturals that you can try but I am not sure they can cover the 1-8k gap as well as the ones I mentioned above.

I'm a noob, so my experience doesn't mean much. However, I like the aoto I got from Maxsim, and I have a Binsui on order. I've used a arkansas "soft" from HallsProedge. It's not aggressive but doesn't chip the edge. It's not really flat, and hard as all get out to lap with a diamond plate. But, it's flat enough for bevel setting on a razor. The one I have you couldn't use, for example, to take the belly out of a plane blade.

I recently had to correct a bent spine. I used diamond plates up the to the aoto, then the aoto, then natural finisher. That worked fine.

As Stefan said a bbw/coti combo is a great transition from 1k synthetic if you have one.

I personally recommend learning to hone on synthetic first, before trying to mess with naturals. You can't put a "grit" rating on naturals & if someone does, they are comparing scratch patterns to a synthetic...which is a known. If you ask a question about honing on a synthetic, most of us can answer from across the world...not so on a natural as each stone has it's own personalities. Once you have learned the synthetics, you can opt for one stone at a time & see where it falls into a progression. Learning to hone is not something you will learn in days, weeks, or even months. The synthetics will help you to obtain a proper foundation to build your honing experiments & experience on.

Quote:

---

Naturals are slow. Much slower than man made ones, and that's why people are not very interested in them. Don't forget, they are just stones, made by nature to do what rocks do, not to hone our blades. They just happen to be used as hones. But the man made stones are made purely for honing, with the best attributes for this.

---

Nevertheless naturals exist that aren't suitable for finishing razors, and unlike many other natural products which have been made obsolete people do still mine/sell/buy/use them. I can't presume to know why, but I'm assuming they have their uses.

Quote:

---

If you would like to try some of them, there are some Japanese like aoto, Amakusa etc, take a look at a vendor and you'll probably find some. From USA I know the Arkansas and the Pike stone (I think that's how it's called). From Europe, the Wastilla, some Spanish sandstones, Dalmore yellow from UK, Some other sandstones from Northern Italy, Pyrenees sandstone from France, etc. For the below 1000 grit stones, and maybe higher, sandstone is your best choice. And, since it's an abundant formation, find a shop that's selling marbles granites etc, and ask him to show you some types of sandstone. You don't have to pay 100$ for a piece, unless you like it a lot.

---

I'll check these out. Do a little research. The Arkansas stones interest me a great deal. Jnats less so due to the steep learning curve, but they tend to be among the prettier naturals around.

Quote:

---

I have an oohira suits that works great after the 1k chosera with dmt slurry before my nakayama or ozuku finisher. Any natural with slurry can be brought down in grit. But my oohira really cuts fast.

---

I've had some experience with using slurry on my welsh stones. One reason I'm looking for lower-grit naturals is to experiment with different slurry stones on different hones. Though I won't be practicing that for a while yet as I have more practical things to practice first. This is mainly for my dragon tongue slate as it already has a pretty wide range and is so hydrophobic I'm not worried about it getting plugged up with lower grit particles, and if it should happen its inexpensive lap away to a clean surface or even replace all together. I have my eye on two very glassy burnishing stones I want to try this on as well.

Quote:

---

You can also use coticule after bevel set and cover the gap as well. Some people will also tell you that you can set bevel on coticule. For a typical razor, one that requires a good amount of work to get in working condition, this rote is a waste of time, it will take way too long.

---

I've been thinking BBW/Coticle, as for lower grits I've seen some Chinese river stones I want to try. One issue is I've heard that the Coti can do everything the BBW can do and more, so who knows.

Quote:

---

It's not really flat, and hard as all get out to lap with a diamond plate.

---

There are a few natural stones I've looked at which seem like they'll be a nightmare to lap.

Quote:

---

As Stefan said a bbw/coti combo is a great transition from 1k synthetic if you have one.

---

Can the BBW really do anything the coti can't?

Quote:

---

I personally recommend learning to hone on synthetic first, before trying to mess with naturals. You can't put a "grit" rating on naturals & if someone does, they are comparing scratch patterns to a synthetic.

---

Apart from doing touch-ups on a yellow lake (and a few on a purple slate) I'm not learning to hone on naturals. My first hone was a 3/8 synthetic. I've been using it to sharpen everything I can get my hands on that has a blade. The stones I have on order now are 1, 3 and 8k naniwa super stones, a 240/800 diamond hone (not for razors) to which I may be adding 5 and 12k naniwas before I buy anything else. I'm also buying a couple of burnishing stones but they're for polishing glass and metal. Though down the road I might play around with them. I'm also planning on setting up four paste strops so I can try diamond paste as well.

As for naturals and grit rating much of what I see is about identification and loose analogy, and I assume it has more to do with economic use of language than attempts to make arbitrary distinctions or comparisons.

Messing with Naturals below the Pre-Finisher / Finisher stage can be a ton of fun and the source of much frustration :)

My results have been much like stated above, setting the bevel is really the issue once that can be accomplished, there are many ways to a shave ready edge and success.

Using cutting slurries can ease that process, heck using the right slurry you can set a bevel on a piece of glass, but finding a Natural stone that effectively sets a bevel is a quest I am still on :)

I've been trying the Pyrénées side of a La Pyrénées/BBW Combo as a bevel-setter - one of these from Ardennes Coticule.

And I've had some pretty reasonable results from it. Used with water it's very slow and really can't compete with a synthetic 1k, but it works a lot faster with slurry - I've used both a DMT and an artificial nagura to make slurry, and both worked pretty well.

(I tried uploading a USB scope shot of a bevel I set on it, but the upload fails).

Quote:

---

Messing with Naturals below the Pre-Finisher / Finisher stage can be a ton of fun and the source of much frustration

My results have been much like stated above, setting the bevel is really the issue once that can be accomplished, there are many ways to a shave ready edge and success.

Using cutting slurries can ease that process, heck using the right slurry you can set a bevel on a piece of glass, but finding a Natural stone that effectively sets a bevel is a quest I am still on

---

If it eludes or frustrates guys like you it's well beyond me. That I'm certain of. However this is all speculation on my part and I'm learning a lot in this thread. It can be nice in such a large arena simply to have a good grasp of ones options. Of what is available, and what those with first-hand experience think about it.

Quote:

---

I've been trying the Pyrénées side of a La Pyrénées/BBW Combo as a bevel-setter - one of these from Ardennes Coticule.

---

Ahh, that page reminds me of one of the key reasons I keep doing u-turns on the thought of ever buying a coticle stone. Size-wise I've used longer 65mm wide stones and shorter 80mm wide stones and I find I like the width far more than the length. In order to get a coti that's anywhere near as wide as I'd like I'd have to pay a heck of a lot of money and for the price of a 200/75mm coticle there are many, many options. Options make for tough decisions!

I love stones and think they're things of beauty, but I honestly hope never to own so many that such decisions become simple. I want a tight, effective collection of stones which will all be used. So I mean to take things very slowly.

Did you see the "la Pyrenees" stone that the above poster pointed out. It's not a coticule at all and it's cheap.

I've seen bevels set on Japanese stones. It was done on a very beautiful striped j-nat. Then the blade was brought to a mirror using a nakayama? and many nagura. A fun process to watch and done by a true master (bayamontate).

Michael

Michael

I'm not speaking for gssixgun but synthetics can get you to the place where you can use the natural after a certain point. When I first started using naturals, I honed to a certain point on synthetics and experimented different ways with maintaining sharpness. If I lost it, I was doing something wrong, if I maintained,I was on the right path. Do as you will, but its an uphill climb starting on naturals unless your next door neighbor is proficient and willing to help you.

Quote:

---

Did you see the "la Pyrenees" stone that the above poster pointed out. It's not a coticule at all and it's cheap.

---

I looked at everything that was available there. I'd need to know more about the La Pyrenees, not to mention other potential options, before making any kind of decision.

Quote:

---

Do as you will, but its an uphill climb starting on naturals unless your next door neighbor is proficient and willing to help you.

---

I don't mean to do that. I think I've made it fairly clear. Apart from a lapping stone the three SS stones I have on their way are going to see a lot of use over a long period before I think of buying anything else. Ideally I won't have to. And hopefully I can sell one of my finishing stones once I make up my mind which I like better. If I thought anyone would want it I might sell my 3/8 but more likely I'll keep it for knives or give it to someone.

Regarding mentors I'm more interested in the process of learning by myself as a source of fun and a hobby than rushing to improve. The bottom line is that I have a razor and I can keep it in working condition on my own. Presumably I may need to send it away to be properly re-sharpened at some point (unless I can do so myself by then), and I can sharpen knives and scissors just fine (though I've never tried mower blades I plan to soon) so everything else is an added extra. This hobby offers so much beyond honing. I want to experience all aspects.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dadsavage

I looked at everything that was available there. I'd need to know more about the La Pyrenees, not to mention other potential options, before making any kind of decision.

---

There's a discussion thread about the Pyrenees on another forum (in which I show the scope shot that for some reason I can't upload here), but I'm not sure I'd be allowed to link to it.

Tho they may exist, I don't know of any naturals that can do what a good synthetic 1k can do in the same space of time. After that point plenty of naturals work & some at a respectable speed..

And finally, today it will let me upload a photo. Here's what a bevel set on my La Pyrénées with slurry looks like under the USB scope...

Attachment 147165

I've played around with many naturals and still haven't found a consistent bevel setter. I have had success with Arkansas stones using oil and starting with a soft coarse but it took forever. A Hindostan with slurry also seems to cut fairly fast but I haven't played with it enough to know if it sets a good bevel. Synthetics for most people and especially for someone new to honing is the best option at least in my opinion.

The best route to honing proficiency as has been noted by several in this thread is to learn first on synthetics because of their ease to use (relatively speaking of course), consistency, speed, and general availability. There are however many other 'natural roads' that have been used for many more years than the modern day synthetics have been in existence.... and IMO they are usually a much slower road, but also way more 'fun'.

Here's a couple of roads that I have used that have produced wonderful edges:

1.) Coarse Llyn Idwal (Turkey Oilstone type) 3-4 K with slurry...up to 6-8 K with water: used to repair minor chips etc. and set bevel.
White Tam O'Shanter (TOS) 6-8 K: basically sets up a very adequate 8K shaving edge
Llyn Idwall finisher with oil 15K: Superb finished edges

2) Coarse fast cutting Coticule 4-6 K with slurry: Repairs minor chips and sets the bevel
Fine finishing 'La Dressant' Coticule 8-10+K with slurry then water to finish: Wonderful shaving edges
Escher 12+K: Final finish for a very smooth top of the line edge!

3.) Very hard JNAT Nakayama or Oosuku finisher used with a series of Coarser to Finer Naguras: Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro, Koma, Tomonagura: Very Slow process, but you can repair and bevel set and finish to a Superb edge with a JNAT.

Check out Lynn and Glen's "1 Stone Honing" video for a wonderful representation of using naturals.

There are many others and of course combinations of progressions using all these and many other stones together....BUT as said: learn on synthetics FIRST. Just MO...

WP34

I wouldn't use a 1K natural stone for a bevel setting. I agree they are a little undependable, I use a chosera 1000 for bevels.

Dalmore yellow (pretty rare 2K-ish)
Sham's 3K stone (he sold all of these, but they are really nice stones).
Dalmore Blue (3k-4K)
BBW/Belgian Blue Whetstone 4K
Dragon's Tongue 4-5K
MST Thuringian stone (It's a slate stone) 4-6K level
Tam O Shanter stones around 6K
White Tam O Shanter stones 8K
Turkish oil stones *the real ones* Feels like 4-5K but usually around 7-8K when shave tested
Coticules (Big variance, 4-8K, a few are near 10K if you're lucky).
Water of Ayr 10-12K ish.
Japanese Natural stones (HUGE amount of variance in these)
Thuringian stones 10-12K
Zulu Grey stones (10K with oil)
Escher stones (final finishing stones 12K+)


I'll try to think of more.

I wonder, has anyone tried the yellow Chinese stones that are sold on eBay and advertised at 3k grit? They are very cheap so I may have to give one a try.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MattW

I wonder, has anyone tried the yellow Chinese stones that are sold on eBay and advertised at 3k grit? They are very cheap so I may have to give one a try.

---

I've wondered about those myself - I'd be very interested to hear what you think if you try one.

I have an oohira suita with dmt slurry that can bring a dulled edge back quickly and no micro chipping. A tsushima black with a tomo of the same is like 5-8 k. I just ordered one. Have heard that is a great stone. ANd Ive also heard(no first hand now) that some aotos come in at 3k. I don't know how reliable that is and many coarser jnats can chip. The Chinese stone you are talking about I have no idea. BBWs are relatively fast cutting and wont chip and they aren't expensive. I don't know what you are looking to spend though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bill3152

I have an oohira suita with dmt slurry that can bring a dulled edge back quickly and no micro chipping. A tsushima black with a tomo of the same is like 5-8 k. I just ordered one. Have heard that is a great stone. ANd Ive also heard(no first hand now) that some aotos come in at 3k. I don't know how reliable that is and many coarser jnats can chip. The Chinese stone you are talking about I have no idea. BBWs are relatively fast cutting and wont chip and they aren't expensive. I don't know what you are looking to spend though.

---

Oh, I already have some other naturals that can be used for bevel setting, I was just curious about this Cnat as I haven't read anything about it as of yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MattW

I wonder, has anyone tried the yellow Chinese stones that are sold on eBay and advertised at 3k grit? They are very cheap so I may have to give one a try.

---

Are you talking about the things called UUSHARP? I have two of them and don't find a lot of favor in them. They are extremely soft and feel like any other white alundum hone when you use them, except that they shed grit like crazy.

The I have one that I still use on tools a little bit, but only out of curiosity, and it comes apart so fast that I use it dry and even dry, I haven't had to clean it despite what looks like loading. It is still shedding grit dry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaveW

Are you talking about the things called UUSHARP? I have two of them and don't find a lot of favor in them. They are extremely soft and feel like any other white alundum hone when you use them, except that they shed grit like crazy.

The I have one that I still use on tools a little bit, but only out of curiosity, and it comes apart so fast that I use it dry and even dry, I haven't had to clean it despite what looks like loading. It is still shedding grit dry.

---

This is the one that I am referring to: Slurry Water Hone Whetstone Straight Razor Yellow Stone Knife Sharpener 3000GRIT | eBay
I would still like to order one if no one else can comment on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MattW

This is the one that I am referring to: Slurry Water Hone Whetstone Straight Razor Yellow Stone Knife Sharpener 3000GRIT | eBay
I would still like to order one if no one else can comment on it.

---

Looks like any other guanxi stone, though I guess it's really hard to tell anything about any of those until you use them (guanxis - every one I've tried has been a little different, and unfortunately, one of them slurried on its own).

re: the original question, if I was going to do a natural progression, it would be three arkansas stones - soft, hard and translucent, and if I felt like I needed to cut fast, I'd slurry the soft.

The issue with arks is that each vendor's stones are a little different. Dans trans and black and vintage trans and black are great, but dans softs aren't very good for much based on my experience with two. Naturalwhetstones softs are good (and coarse enough to do work), and their fines are OK, but I like dan's fines better. Vintage pike washitas are a great soft to hard, depending on how you use them, but they're getting expensive - you could actually use one to shave if you used it for tools for a while and conditioned the surface and didn't lap it.

A slurried softer vintage slate and a decent finer slate would also make a progression you could use. Neither would be as fast as a 1k synthetic, but they would pick up right after that.

The key to me, to make marginal vintage natural stones work well (or good quality vintage small razor hones) is a vintage silk finish branded linen. They will bring an edge up two steps from most marginal stones better than any newer linen I've tried, but it isn't always easy to find a vintage unused clean silk finish branded linen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscroft

And finally, today it will let me upload a photo. Here's what a bevel set on my La Pyrénées with slurry looks like under the USB scope...

Attachment 147165

---

Hi Oscroft, do you stil use the Pyrénées hone as a bevel setter? can you tell a bit more about it now that we're a couple of months later? I'm still thinking about buying this hone but haven't found that much info on it yet

I have an aoto that is finer than 1k and coarser than 8k....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bram

Hi Oscroft, do you stil use the Pyrénées hone as a bevel setter? can you tell a bit more about it now that we're a couple of months later? I'm still thinking about buying this hone but haven't found that much info on it yet

---

I'm not Oscroft, but the La Pyrenees I received as a sample from Ardennes is doing okay for me. I don't have the broad experience that others here do, but it's been a godsend in my situation. I do La Pyrenees-->BBW-->Coticule (La Veinette)-->BBW-->Coticule. I must be doing something incorrectly the first time through, because I get a noticeable improvement going back through the BBW and Coticule again after having gone through it once already. I wish I had the BBW-La Pyrenees back when I first started honing. Might have saved me some frustration. YMMV.

that's a strange progression indeed :hmmm: but if it works then I guess it works. I stil haven't decided yet. I recently borowed a naniwa workstone (1 & 3 K) from a friend and I know I want a decent bevel setter. I'm drawn to the La Pyrenee au blue from ardennes but it stil seems like a big gamble. (I'll probably buy it anyway as soon as I find a job though)

I think a stone like the La Pyrenees is more for people who insist on a natural stone, or maybe those on a budget and with a bit of patience. It's a nice fit for me.

As to my weird progression, there were two or three shaves in between as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bill3152

I'm not speaking for gssixgun but synthetics can get you to the place where you can use the natural after a certain point. When I first started using naturals, I honed to a certain point on synthetics and experimented different ways with maintaining sharpness. If I lost it, I was doing something wrong, if I maintained,I was on the right path. Do as you will, but its an uphill climb starting on naturals unless your next door neighbor is proficient and willing to help you.

---

Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm having an easier time learning on naturals/coticules than I was on synthetics.

They sell here in Bulgaria a hard slate , witch is fast on slurry and it is very good midle stone in 2 - 6 k level . It didnot chip the edge and it polish very good for this grit . Leaves very sharp edges also .
It is sold also in combination with a fine sandstone , that can be used for chips repair and bevell seting .
I tink Hunter blades has 1 of theese .

Белги� за заточване - е�те�твен камък гр. Софи� Гео Милев • OLX.bg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RusenBG

They sell here in Bulgaria a hard slate , witch is fast on slurry and it is very good midle stone in 2 - 6 k level . It didnot chip the edge and it polish very good for this grit . Leaves very sharp edges also .
It is sold also in combination with a fine sandstone , that can be used for chips repair and bevell seting .
I tink Hunter blades has 1 of theese .

Белги� за заточване - е�те�твен камък гр. Софи� Гео Милев • OLX.bg

---

Do you have what they are called in English?

On the site they are presented as Belgian stones, but I think the white type is the Wallachian sandstone, and the dark, shale from the Carpathians. The Wallachian sandstone is somewhat known stone, for the shale, I'm not familiar with it.

I am afraid the availability of cheap synthetic stones in the West has eroded our knowledge of natural hones. OTOH Perret describes only 2 sharpening stones in his 1790 book La Pogonotomie ou l'art d'apprendre à se raser soi-même. The one is a coticule, the other a millstone for grinding razors. He considers the Belgian blue that naturally backs the coticule useless. After the millstone he progresses to the coticule straight away. In his book L'art du coutelier, starting on page 61 he describes 5 different natural stones amongst which the coticule.

In Japan they are much prouder of their traditions and especially katana sword makers use numerous stones from coarse to fine to sharpen and polish their razors. So Yamashita is very knowledgeable about natural Japnes hones. He helped me find a very nice Nakayama to my specifications. He may be able to set you up with a progression of 1-8K hones. This is his site: Japan Tool

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShaveWares

Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm having an easier time learning on naturals/coticules than I was on synthetics.

---

I don't know if you are in the minority or not, but I have preferred natural stones for razors for a long time. Not because you can't get something good on synthetics, but the naturals that I have never cause any microchipping, etc, and in the end, the edges off of a natural and even the finest synthetic stones are fairly similar. Only the very fine oxides (0.1 micron, etc) can make the edges go beyond that level, but it's a very transient edge that they create, and unless you constantly use them, it feels like you're struggling to keep that edge (and something like 0.1 micron iron oxide does make a razor that causes me a lot of weepers).

Anyway, naturals and a real vintage linen makes for a really nice combination, and a razor that always seems to be the same sharpness level.

Quote:

---

On the site they are presented as Belgian stones, but I think the white type is the Wallachian sandstone, and the dark, shale from the Carpathians. The Wallachian sandstone is somewhat known stone, for the shale, I'm not familiar with it.

---

\
No this stones are mined and cut here in Bulgaria - i know the man and i have colect a raw stones from the nature . \They aregood stones for the prise of a 15 bucs . \Maybe there is a similar stones in other places i do not know .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RusenBG

\
No this stones are mined and cut here in Bulgaria - i know the man and i have colect a raw stones from the nature . \They aregood stones for the prise of a 15 bucs . \Maybe there is a similar stones in other places i do not know .

---

These specific stones, the Wallachian sandstone and Carpathian shale are somewhat famous stones in the Eastern Europe.
SHARPENING STONE - wulflund.com

Unless you've seen the mine, or have any papers that say so, I wouldn't be so sure about their origin.
Of course, you could be right. I haven't tried the stone to be sure. But I might give it a shot.