Thread: Natural options for "1-8k work"

After looking at a Chinese natural hone which the seller claimed was 3k, getting some information on the new Muller hones from a member here, and playing with my Dragon Tongue (trying to use it to sharpen and hone dull knives) I've been thinking about natural stones other than finishers. Aside from the Coticle most of the time when I hear about natural stones it's about finishing stones, and often that's mentioned as a finisher too. Heck the only naturals I know anything about that aren't finishers (and some can be used as finishers anyway) are Cotis, BBWs, Dragon Tongues, and some Arkansas stones. Others I've heard of in passing, but never in much detail.

So what would be good natural hones for doing jobs for which one would normally turn use 1-8k synthetics? Bevel setting, sharpening, etc. I know some naturals have a big range depending on patience, pressure, slurry, etc. but I'm interested in stones that can do these jobs without a lot of tuning, prep or heavy slurry. In other words if you, personally, were going to buy different natural stones for repair work, bevel setting, sharpening, honing, etc. what would you pick up? It doesn't matter if it's one, two, or ten stones. I'm just curious what options you'd consider.

I want to learn more about natural stones. What's available, and what they're capable of beyond what I normally hear about. I mean when I first got into razor sharpening I spent a long time coveting a Belgian Blue because I was assured it was one of the best finishing stones around! Now I'm not thinking of actually buying a set of all-natural stones, but depending on what I learn I may be adjusting certain long-term plans.

We are talking a lot about natural finishers only, because their edges are friendly to the skin, where, most of the man made stones lack something there.
Naturals are slow. Much slower than man made ones, and that's why people are not very interested in them. Don't forget, they are just stones, made by nature to do what rocks do, not to hone our blades. They just happen to be used as hones. But the man made stones are made purely for honing, with the best attributes for this.
And, after trying some coarser naturals, it becomes obvious why they are not really preferred, aside from their finishing properties.
If you would like to try some of them, there are some Japanese like aoto, Amakusa etc, take a look at a vendor and you'll probably find some. From USA I know the Arkansas and the Pike stone (I think that's how it's called). From Europe, the Wastilla, some Spanish sandstones, Dalmore yellow from UK, Some other sandstones from Northern Italy, Pyrenees sandstone from France, etc. For the below 1000 grit stones, and maybe higher, sandstone is your best choice. And, since it's an abundant formation, find a shop that's selling marbles granites etc, and ask him to show you some types of sandstone. You don't have to pay 100$ for a piece, unless you like it a lot.

I have an oohira suits that works great after the 1k chosera with dmt slurry before my nakayama or ozuku finisher. Any natural with slurry can be brought down in grit. But my oohira really cuts fast.

1k natural that is reasonably fast and works for razors has not been discovered yet.
Coarse Jnats tend to chip edges, therefore not very useful.

If you set bevels on synthetic, then you can go the nagura route with jnats and cover the 1-8k gap. There are medium Jnats that can cover the gap as well.
You can also use coticule after bevel set and cover the gap as well.
Some people will also tell you that you can set bevel on coticule. For a typical razor, one that requires a good amount of work to get in working condition, this rote is a waste of time, it will take way too long.

There are other naturals that you can try but I am not sure they can cover the 1-8k gap as well as the ones I mentioned above.

I'm a noob, so my experience doesn't mean much. However, I like the aoto I got from Maxsim, and I have a Binsui on order. I've used a arkansas "soft" from HallsProedge. It's not aggressive but doesn't chip the edge. It's not really flat, and hard as all get out to lap with a diamond plate. But, it's flat enough for bevel setting on a razor. The one I have you couldn't use, for example, to take the belly out of a plane blade.

I recently had to correct a bent spine. I used diamond plates up the to the aoto, then the aoto, then natural finisher. That worked fine.

As Stefan said a bbw/coti combo is a great transition from 1k synthetic if you have one.

I personally recommend learning to hone on synthetic first, before trying to mess with naturals. You can't put a "grit" rating on naturals & if someone does, they are comparing scratch patterns to a synthetic...which is a known. If you ask a question about honing on a synthetic, most of us can answer from across the world...not so on a natural as each stone has it's own personalities. Once you have learned the synthetics, you can opt for one stone at a time & see where it falls into a progression. Learning to hone is not something you will learn in days, weeks, or even months. The synthetics will help you to obtain a proper foundation to build your honing experiments & experience on.

Naturals are slow. Much slower than man made ones, and that's why people are not very interested in them. Don't forget, they are just stones, made by nature to do what rocks do, not to hone our blades. They just happen to be used as hones. But the man made stones are made purely for honing, with the best attributes for this.

Nevertheless naturals exist that aren't suitable for finishing razors, and unlike many other natural products which have been made obsolete people do still mine/sell/buy/use them. I can't presume to know why, but I'm assuming they have their uses.

If you would like to try some of them, there are some Japanese like aoto, Amakusa etc, take a look at a vendor and you'll probably find some. From USA I know the Arkansas and the Pike stone (I think that's how it's called). From Europe, the Wastilla, some Spanish sandstones, Dalmore yellow from UK, Some other sandstones from Northern Italy, Pyrenees sandstone from France, etc. For the below 1000 grit stones, and maybe higher, sandstone is your best choice. And, since it's an abundant formation, find a shop that's selling marbles granites etc, and ask him to show you some types of sandstone. You don't have to pay 100$ for a piece, unless you like it a lot.

I'll check these out. Do a little research. The Arkansas stones interest me a great deal. Jnats less so due to the steep learning curve, but they tend to be among the prettier naturals around.

I have an oohira suits that works great after the 1k chosera with dmt slurry before my nakayama or ozuku finisher. Any natural with slurry can be brought down in grit. But my oohira really cuts fast.

I've had some experience with using slurry on my welsh stones. One reason I'm looking for lower-grit naturals is to experiment with different slurry stones on different hones. Though I won't be practicing that for a while yet as I have more practical things to practice first. This is mainly for my dragon tongue slate as it already has a pretty wide range and is so hydrophobic I'm not worried about it getting plugged up with lower grit particles, and if it should happen its inexpensive lap away to a clean surface or even replace all together. I have my eye on two very glassy burnishing stones I want to try this on as well.

You can also use coticule after bevel set and cover the gap as well. Some people will also tell you that you can set bevel on coticule. For a typical razor, one that requires a good amount of work to get in working condition, this rote is a waste of time, it will take way too long.

I've been thinking BBW/Coticle, as for lower grits I've seen some Chinese river stones I want to try. One issue is I've heard that the Coti can do everything the BBW can do and more, so who knows.

It's not really flat, and hard as all get out to lap with a diamond plate.

There are a few natural stones I've looked at which seem like they'll be a nightmare to lap.

As Stefan said a bbw/coti combo is a great transition from 1k synthetic if you have one.

Can the BBW really do anything the coti can't?

I personally recommend learning to hone on synthetic first, before trying to mess with naturals. You can't put a "grit" rating on naturals & if someone does, they are comparing scratch patterns to a synthetic.

Apart from doing touch-ups on a yellow lake (and a few on a purple slate) I'm not learning to hone on naturals. My first hone was a 3/8 synthetic. I've been using it to sharpen everything I can get my hands on that has a blade. The stones I have on order now are 1, 3 and 8k naniwa super stones, a 240/800 diamond hone (not for razors) to which I may be adding 5 and 12k naniwas before I buy anything else. I'm also buying a couple of burnishing stones but they're for polishing glass and metal. Though down the road I might play around with them. I'm also planning on setting up four paste strops so I can try diamond paste as well.

As for naturals and grit rating much of what I see is about identification and loose analogy, and I assume it has more to do with economic use of language than attempts to make arbitrary distinctions or comparisons.

Messing with Naturals below the Pre-Finisher / Finisher stage can be a ton of fun and the source of much frustration

My results have been much like stated above, setting the bevel is really the issue once that can be accomplished, there are many ways to a shave ready edge and success.

Using cutting slurries can ease that process, heck using the right slurry you can set a bevel on a piece of glass, but finding a Natural stone that effectively sets a bevel is a quest I am still on

I've been trying the Pyrénées side of a La Pyrénées/BBW Combo as a bevel-setter - one of these from Ardennes Coticule.

And I've had some pretty reasonable results from it. Used with water it's very slow and really can't compete with a synthetic 1k, but it works a lot faster with slurry - I've used both a DMT and an artificial nagura to make slurry, and both worked pretty well.

(I tried uploading a USB scope shot of a bevel I set on it, but the upload fails).