Thread: Natural options for "1-8k work"

Messing with Naturals below the Pre-Finisher / Finisher stage can be a ton of fun and the source of much frustration

My results have been much like stated above, setting the bevel is really the issue once that can be accomplished, there are many ways to a shave ready edge and success.

Using cutting slurries can ease that process, heck using the right slurry you can set a bevel on a piece of glass, but finding a Natural stone that effectively sets a bevel is a quest I am still on

If it eludes or frustrates guys like you it's well beyond me. That I'm certain of. However this is all speculation on my part and I'm learning a lot in this thread. It can be nice in such a large arena simply to have a good grasp of ones options. Of what is available, and what those with first-hand experience think about it.

I've been trying the Pyrénées side of a La Pyrénées/BBW Combo as a bevel-setter - one of these from Ardennes Coticule.

Ahh, that page reminds me of one of the key reasons I keep doing u-turns on the thought of ever buying a coticle stone. Size-wise I've used longer 65mm wide stones and shorter 80mm wide stones and I find I like the width far more than the length. In order to get a coti that's anywhere near as wide as I'd like I'd have to pay a heck of a lot of money and for the price of a 200/75mm coticle there are many, many options. Options make for tough decisions!

I love stones and think they're things of beauty, but I honestly hope never to own so many that such decisions become simple. I want a tight, effective collection of stones which will all be used. So I mean to take things very slowly.

Did you see the "la Pyrenees" stone that the above poster pointed out. It's not a coticule at all and it's cheap.

I've seen bevels set on Japanese stones. It was done on a very beautiful striped j-nat. Then the blade was brought to a mirror using a nakayama? and many nagura. A fun process to watch and done by a true master (bayamontate).

Michael

Michael

I'm not speaking for gssixgun but synthetics can get you to the place where you can use the natural after a certain point. When I first started using naturals, I honed to a certain point on synthetics and experimented different ways with maintaining sharpness. If I lost it, I was doing something wrong, if I maintained,I was on the right path. Do as you will, but its an uphill climb starting on naturals unless your next door neighbor is proficient and willing to help you.

Did you see the "la Pyrenees" stone that the above poster pointed out. It's not a coticule at all and it's cheap.

I looked at everything that was available there. I'd need to know more about the La Pyrenees, not to mention other potential options, before making any kind of decision.

Do as you will, but its an uphill climb starting on naturals unless your next door neighbor is proficient and willing to help you.

I don't mean to do that. I think I've made it fairly clear. Apart from a lapping stone the three SS stones I have on their way are going to see a lot of use over a long period before I think of buying anything else. Ideally I won't have to. And hopefully I can sell one of my finishing stones once I make up my mind which I like better. If I thought anyone would want it I might sell my 3/8 but more likely I'll keep it for knives or give it to someone.

Regarding mentors I'm more interested in the process of learning by myself as a source of fun and a hobby than rushing to improve. The bottom line is that I have a razor and I can keep it in working condition on my own. Presumably I may need to send it away to be properly re-sharpened at some point (unless I can do so myself by then), and I can sharpen knives and scissors just fine (though I've never tried mower blades I plan to soon) so everything else is an added extra. This hobby offers so much beyond honing. I want to experience all aspects.

Originally Posted by dadsavage

I looked at everything that was available there. I'd need to know more about the La Pyrenees, not to mention other potential options, before making any kind of decision.

There's a discussion thread about the Pyrenees on another forum (in which I show the scope shot that for some reason I can't upload here), but I'm not sure I'd be allowed to link to it.

Tho they may exist, I don't know of any naturals that can do what a good synthetic 1k can do in the same space of time. After that point plenty of naturals work & some at a respectable speed..

And finally, today it will let me upload a photo. Here's what a bevel set on my La Pyrénées with slurry looks like under the USB scope...

I've played around with many naturals and still haven't found a consistent bevel setter. I have had success with Arkansas stones using oil and starting with a soft coarse but it took forever. A Hindostan with slurry also seems to cut fairly fast but I haven't played with it enough to know if it sets a good bevel. Synthetics for most people and especially for someone new to honing is the best option at least in my opinion.

The best route to honing proficiency as has been noted by several in this thread is to learn first on synthetics because of their ease to use (relatively speaking of course), consistency, speed, and general availability. There are however many other 'natural roads' that have been used for many more years than the modern day synthetics have been in existence.... and IMO they are usually a much slower road, but also way more 'fun'.

Here's a couple of roads that I have used that have produced wonderful edges:

1.) Coarse Llyn Idwal (Turkey Oilstone type) 3-4 K with slurry...up to 6-8 K with water: used to repair minor chips etc. and set bevel.
White Tam O'Shanter (TOS) 6-8 K: basically sets up a very adequate 8K shaving edge
Llyn Idwall finisher with oil 15K: Superb finished edges

2) Coarse fast cutting Coticule 4-6 K with slurry: Repairs minor chips and sets the bevel
Fine finishing 'La Dressant' Coticule 8-10+K with slurry then water to finish: Wonderful shaving edges
Escher 12+K: Final finish for a very smooth top of the line edge!

3.) Very hard JNAT Nakayama or Oosuku finisher used with a series of Coarser to Finer Naguras: Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro, Koma, Tomonagura: Very Slow process, but you can repair and bevel set and finish to a Superb edge with a JNAT.

Check out Lynn and Glen's "1 Stone Honing" video for a wonderful representation of using naturals.

There are many others and of course combinations of progressions using all these and many other stones together....BUT as said: learn on synthetics FIRST. Just MO...

WP34

I wouldn't use a 1K natural stone for a bevel setting. I agree they are a little undependable, I use a chosera 1000 for bevels.

Dalmore yellow (pretty rare 2K-ish)
Sham's 3K stone (he sold all of these, but they are really nice stones).
Dalmore Blue (3k-4K)
BBW/Belgian Blue Whetstone 4K
Dragon's Tongue 4-5K
MST Thuringian stone (It's a slate stone) 4-6K level
Tam O Shanter stones around 6K
White Tam O Shanter stones 8K
Turkish oil stones *the real ones* Feels like 4-5K but usually around 7-8K when shave tested
Coticules (Big variance, 4-8K, a few are near 10K if you're lucky).
Water of Ayr 10-12K ish.
Japanese Natural stones (HUGE amount of variance in these)
Thuringian stones 10-12K
Zulu Grey stones (10K with oil)
Escher stones (final finishing stones 12K+)


I'll try to think of more.