Thread: Beginner Sharpening

Two fold Question:

What stones do I need to start with?

I also want to quit spending so much on sharpening my kitchen knives. Can I use the lower grit stones for this, or is still far to fine for that purpose?

Thanks for the advice!

Well you certainly took your time getting to the deep end.

First you need to do some reading in the library's Honing section. Especially the Beginner's Guide to Honing & What hones, pastes, or sprays do I need.

I would suggest that you start at the top of the grits with a 12k synthetic and start with just touching up a just starting to pull razor. Then the lower grits, but you could start by getting a full set and starting from bevel set on up.

Edit: 3k - 6k is the common max for kitchen knives, but for slicing meat or cutting onions I like the edge off my coticle. Remember that the finer the edge the less durable it will be.

Have fun learning, it is a rather rewarding to shave with your first edge restoration.

Jonathan

The most common and basic starter is 1, 4 & 8 k stones. Naniwas or Nortons are the most common.

There is a fairly large difference between sharpening knives, and other tools in contrast to sharpening razors. This has less to do with the tools used for the job and more to do with the technique. Though the ideal stones for knives as opposed to razors might be somewhat different as well. I've been sharpening knives and general tools for many years, but am fairly new to razors and it has not really given me a head start.

For razors most people start with a finishing stone; something to keep a shave ready razor shave ready with occasional touch-ups when your strop alone or newspaper can't do the job. This can be an alternative to lapping pastes or a way to get more out of your pastes. It could be anywhere between 8k and 30k, or you might turn to a whole host of natural stones: C12k, Yellow Lake or other British/European slate stone, a good coticle, many Jnats, an Arkansas or other high-polish 'crystal' stone or many others. Most would recommend synthetics though and of these popular choices like the Naniwa SS 10k or 12k will work well. There is a massive world of choice though.

For many knives such a stone would be too fine, but some of them might have a measure of utility for knife sharpening. Remember a knife need not be sharpened to the same level along its entire length and sometimes it can be useful to have an inch or two of finely sharpened steel for careful work. Some stones might offer more overlap utility than others; usually those around 8k which give a fine enough polish for a razor, but are not too ephemeral for a knife. Something like the Kitayama 8k or Nani's Jyunpaku (I can't vouch for this on razors though)

If you want to sharpen razors from the factory or vintage razors generally speaking you'll need a stone for bevel setting that would be somewhere between 1-2k then a sharpening stone of around 3-5k and a polishing stone of around 8k. Many shave off 8k edges, and some 8k edges are very excellent, but others like to then add a finishing stone for even finer polishing and smoothing. It can also be useful having something under 1k for restoration work, chip removal, and so on if you wish to buy vintage razors.

A reasonable rule of thumb might be to say that a stone you'd use for chip removal on razors would be more of a bevel setter for knives, while a bevel setter for razors would be more of a sharpener for knives, and a sharpener for razors would be more of a polisher for knives. However different knives have different needs and you may also find that stones which feel great for razors are a little fussy for knives. I use Naniwa SS 1-3-8 stones for my razors for example, but these dish quickly, and are prone to plugging up and gouging which to my mind makes them very fussy stones for knife sharpening in contrast to something like a high grade diamond stone which might be too aggressive for a razor.

It may be that other stone series like the various Shaptons offer a better balance. I can't say as I haven't used them.

If you're simply looking to maintain your knives though, as opposed to sharpening knives from scratch, you'll only need one or two stones. Something like Naniwa's aotoshi brick, their 1/3, King's 800/4k or Taidea's 2/5 for general sharpening work are to my mind very ideal stones for kitchen knives. How useful are they for razors though? I find Taidea's stones are a little too rough on razors, and this is especially true in the finishing stages. Shaving off an 8k taidea is not very comfortable compared to an 8k Nani. The aotoshi might work as a bevel setter for razors however I can't vouch for it from experience. I know it's one of the best general sharpening and polishing stones for knives that you could ever want. The 4k side of a king stone would be good for high-end sharpening on a razor, and the 800 side might be good for minor restoration. A Nani or Suehiro 1/3 would be very useful for razors; bevel setting, and sharpening.

The problem is if you buy more exotic stones you won't be able to get much feedback online. A lot of people use Shapton glass, Norton 4/8 or Nani SS stones for razor sharpening and can give you advice on using them. In contrast I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention the Aotoshi.

It is worth bearing in mind that a good knife stone can be purchased for very little. Many options exist. I'm very fond of the welsh Dragon Tongue for knife sharpening for example as it has a good variable bandwidth and can polish to a very high standard. For knife maintenance it can easily to the job. An Iyo Nagura plate might give similar results and cost as little but would require more practice and skill. A stone like the King 800/4k, Nani or Suehiro 1/3, or Taidea 2/5 would likewise make a very good knife sharpener. All are quite inexpensive.

Have you read the WIKI? It has plenty to keep you entertained...

Actually, knife sharpening is not that different, FOR SINGLE BEVEL Japanese-style cutlery.

That's one of the reasons we have plentiful selection of waterstones coming from that part of the world. The single bevel knives are sharpened similarly to razors and on the same stuff. The fancy knives are very expensive, and the Sushi Chefs are quite serious about keeping them, ahem, razor-sharp.

I have mine. A Deba and a Slicer (forgot the proper name. It's a great way to "justify" a waterstone collection--kitchen use too honey!)

The simplicity of maintaining that edge and wicked cool slicing work one can do...

Anyhoo, not all knives are western double bevel. And some are honed to high grits. I go to 8k on mine, my Deba took over "Chef-knife" responsibilities in my kitchen and works a fish over pretty good as well. I love the heft and sharpness.

That's just a glimpse. There are hundreds of videos both of sharpening single-bevels and of "dismantling fish". enjoy

Actually, knife sharpening is not that different, FOR SINGLE BEVEL Japanese-style cutlery.

There is still one absolutely critical difference. You don't use a knife on your face. So even single-bevel Japanese knives are going to be honed with no concern for what is with a razor one of the most important elements of honing: how it feels on your face. It's true there's overlap between the tools you use, but it's not consistent. Shapton ceramics, Taidea stones and the Chosera 10k are just three examples of superb knife hones that I've seen draw complaints from razor users for being too rough, aggressive or simply not resulting in a comfortable shave in contrast to other stones.

So I would still say to anyone looking to sharpen knives and razors to buy stones with regard to how desirable they are for a razor first and foremost. If they work on your knives or have cross-over utility that's great. If not you may need to buy separate knife hones. Imho this is better than buying hones first and foremost for their performance on knives, and finding they give your razor an edge that results in uncomfortable or painful shaves.

That said I do think there is a lot of potential cross-over utility. It would be interesting to do some experiments and find out how certain well thought of knife stones perform on razors, i.e could you use a Beston 500 for chip removal and heavy bevel setting? Can an aotoshi set a bevel on a razor in good time? Does a Jyunpaku make a good finisher or is it too close to the Chosera 10k in feel?

Hopefully in a month or two when I get some more razors I'll be able to answer some of those questions.

Originally Posted by rockysopus

Two fold Question:

What stones do I need to start with?

I also want to quit spending so much on sharpening my kitchen knives. Can I use the lower grit stones for this, or is still far to fine for that purpose?

Thanks for the advice!

You can easily overlap knife, tool & razor stones but you need stones that are known for this quality. Synthetics are the best place to start & their size suits both too. Sharpening a 210mm Deba on a razor size Jnat is kinda frustrating
The popular Nortons were not made for razors but they certainly do the job well as can the Nani SS stones. Shapton GS were made for Lie Nielsen A2 chisels but work a treat on plain Carbon & Stainless razors.

I'd just say get a diamond plate to keep your stones flat as knives will take their toll as dishing & wear on your stones.

I use a DMT for my kitchen knives and always reserve my other stones for razors. Good luck with your new venture!

Originally Posted by onimaru55

You can easily overlap knife, tool & razor stones but you need stones that are known for this quality. Synthetics are the best place to start & their size suits both too. Sharpening a 210mm Deba on a razor size Jnat is kinda frustrating
The popular Nortons were not made for razors but they certainly do the job well as can the Nani SS stones. Shapton GS were made for Lie Nielsen A2 chisels but work a treat on plain Carbon & Stainless razors.

I'd just say get a diamond plate to keep your stones flat as knives will take their toll as dishing & wear on your stones.

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful advice. Turns out my Shun knives A. Don't have a double bevel, so thanks for leading me down that path and B. Mfg. will sharpen for free.

Still need to work on that razor though.