Current opinions on Zulu Grey and Suehiro 20k? Shapton 30k?

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

So, the options for the thread are Suehiro 20k, Shapton 30k, and... the Zulu stone? Not Eschers, Charnleys, Jnats but the Zulu? Since when does that mediocre finisher fit in the hall of the greatest finishers? ..

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Vasillis, the OP did not suggest that the Zulu was in the same league with the Gokumyo or Glass Stones.. he simply asked for the current assessment of the Zulu compared to the others listed and possibly to others unlisted..

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There are some older threads on Zulu Grey, Suehiro 20k, and shapton 30k. I'd like a refresh.

Can the current users please report? Compare and contrast to other stones especially appreciated.

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Opinions he wanted and opinions he received, including yours. As always, opinions vary.


rs,
Tack

I have used all of them, the Suehiro 20k is the top choice for me

How about compared with your Jnats?

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I have used all of them, the Suehiro 20k is the top choice for me

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I have tried 2 Zulus, Vasilis has had four. To be completely honest this isn't even remotely anything like a representative sample to draw conclusions from.

However, it is enough to
(a) put me off them, as its my cash and I work, as I am sure most of us do, darn hard to earn it,
(b) make me conclude that there are bad ones, and
(c) remind me that all naturals vary from hone to hone.

The last point seems to hve been forgotten, at least by one of us. The Zulu is a natural. All natural hones differ within their own type. Ergo not all Zulus are equal.

I guess I don't conform to the stereotype Vasilis conjectures about above inasmuch that if I spend a lot of £s on something that is flawed I make a great big noise about it.

Usually I am quiet enough until I read superlative reviews based on single samples - only then I feel duty bound to redress the balance.

I do agree with Vasilis that there is a real danger of hype in such matters, indeed most finishers have been touted as the be-all and end-all in their day, even if they aren't that favourably looked on now. That probably has a lot to do with what Vasilis theorises - those with good impressions are more likely to share while those who feel, guilty and embarassed at spending too much on something that doesn't suit tend to keep quiet about the matter.

Me? I'm like Dragnets Joe Friday: I'm only interested in the facts, just the facts...

Regards
Neil

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I have tried 2 Zulus, Vasilis has had four. To be completely honest this isn't even remotely anything like a representative sample to draw conclusions from.

However, it is enough to
(a) put me off them, as its my cash and I work, as I am sure most of us do, darn hard to earn it,
(b) make me conclude that there are bad ones, and
(c) remind me that all naturals vary from hone to hone.

The last point seems to hve been forgotten, at least by one of us. The Zulu is a natural. All natural hones differ within their own type. Ergo not all Zulus are equal.

I guess I don't conform to the stereotype Vasilis conjectures about above inasmuch that if I spend a lot of £s on something that is flawed I make a great big noise about it.

Usually I am quiet enough until I read superlative reviews based on single samples - only then I feel duty bound to redress the balance.

I do agree with Vasilis that there is a real danger of hype in such matters, indeed most finishers have been touted as the be-all and end-all in their day, even if they aren't that favourably looked on now. That probably has a lot to do with what Vasilis theorises - those with good impressions are more likely to share while those who feel, guilty and embarassed at spending too much on something that doesn't suit tend to keep quiet about the matter.

Me? I'm like Dragnets Joe Friday: I'm only interested in the facts, just the facts...

Regards
Neil

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Thank you Neil, and, I'm glad you are back.
Indeed, it's not a big enough sample, nowhere near. But since there is even a single stone that under-performs, that raises questions.
And, yes, pretty much, my conclusion is this, since it's a natural, it will absolutely definitely 100% have variations.
After that, it's quality control.
And, I understand if MichaelC can't test each and every stone, since they were many. It ends up to luck.
In my last fortune cookie it was written "you'll be unlucky in the matter at hand". I was holding a Zulu, so, there is that.
I was strangely unlucky, enough to start thinking that all of them were overrated, and I'm glad a friend told me about the variations he saw in his own Zulu stones. But don't expect you to be the lucky one when you get your stone. Be prepared.

Ah well I ordered one of the Zulu stones it's not arrived here yet. As I do the lottery every week and have not won a bean I'll give you 3 guesses which type I'll receive! On the other hand maybe, just maybe it will be the one that works for me.
What I have learned is that any finisher is absolutely useless if you can't set a bevel in the first place. I'm still at the stage where some blades come out perfect and some I may as well use as a butter knife. Neil, thanks for the couple you honed for me they are my benchmark.
I've found that mostly I don't spend enough time on the 1000 I use the TNT as my thumb pads are like leather and I'm starting to understand that when I think the bevel is set it's only just starting to get there and still needs more laps. So even when my Zulu arrives I'll leave it in a draw until I'm consistently getting a shave ready edge of my Naniwa's. Only then will I be able to tell how good/bad the Zulu is as a finisher. I seriously think that some people look to the finishers as the magic ingredient to get a bad edge to miraculously become the best edge they've ever shaved with.
I'll come back to this thread at some stage in hopefully the not to distant future and give some feedback when I've tried the Zulu

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

..
I do agree with Vasilis that there is a real danger of hype in such matters, indeed most finishers have been touted as the be-all and end-all in their day, even if they aren't that favourably looked on now. That probably has a lot to do with what Vasilis theorises - those with good impressions are more likely to share while those who feel, guilty and embarassed at spending too much on something that doesn't suit tend to keep quiet about the matter.
..

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and as Vasillis said:

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The whole hype about the Zulu stone is because, if someone likes it, he'll boast about it in as many opportunities as he'll get. If someone doesn't like it on the other hand, he'll forget that he bought it, it really feels bad that he spend 100+$ on something that doesn't worth it. And maybe if the new guys are lucky, he'll mention it once.

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I find that idea interesting. Consider the old business maxim "A happy customer might tell one other person about you but an unhappy customer will surely tell ten people." After all, if something works as expected.. big deal, that's what it was supposed to do; if it doesn't work well then we didn't get what we paid for and we complain. This is compounded these days by the fact that complaints live forever in the bowels of the search engine databases. Off the top of my head I can think of two products that had genuine, serious problems that were immediately corrected by the manufacturers and yet now, three and four model generations later are still being trashed on internet forums because of what can be turned up with a quick search. Also, everyone seems to know someone whose wife's cousin's husband worked at -a-shop-that-sold-the-stuff- and tells a (decade old) horror story about the product.

However..

Considering the human ego, it does seem reasonable that some of us won't be inclined to admit that we wasted our money on something (although we still might post asking for help thinking that we just haven't figured out how to use it.) Yet oddly enough, it is rare to find that someone has posted a message here simply saying "Hey, I wanted you to know that I tried Product X and it was really great!" It happens but not often.

I haven't said anything about my experience with the Zulu because I have tried just one (1) if them and have used it on about a dozen blades. As Neil points out, that is an embarrassingly small sample.


rs,
Tack

Hmmmm, Natural stones vary ??? Wow what a concept...

We have argued that for years on this forum, or "The wonderful world of finishers, what we all argue about and waste our money on"

The added dimension of using a finisher is the Guy pushing the steel across the stone, so now you just compounded the variables :)


I would love to test a "Bad Zulu" myself so if anyone stateside has one that they wouldn't mind parting with for a bit would PM me, maybe we could arrange something :) As I have only tested two and both seemed fine to me, the first one I tested I ran over 100 razors on and the second one I used at a Meet on only a couple...


ps: Full disclosure I did not run out and buy one, I need another finisher about as much as I need the 8 inches of snow that just fell...

Finishers and bevel setters...

There's always a better one out there waiting its turn.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

...The added dimension of using a finisher is the Guy pushing the steel across the stone, so now you just compounded the variables :)


I would love to test a "Bad Zulu" myself so if anyone stateside has one that they wouldn't mind parting with for a bit would PM me, maybe we could arrange something :)...

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Can I send you the guy pushing the steel across a Zulu?? I'll put myself in the mail... :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Hmmmm, Natural stones vary ??? Wow what a concept...

We have argued that for years on this forum, or "The wonderful world of finishers, what we all argue about and waste our money on"

The added dimension of using a finisher is the Guy pushing the steel across the stone, so now you just compounded the variables :)


I would love to test a "Bad Zulu" myself so if anyone stateside has one that they wouldn't mind parting with for a bit would PM me, maybe we could arrange something :) As I have only tested two and both seemed fine to me, the first one I tested I ran over 100 razors on and the second one I used at a Meet on only a couple...


ps: Full disclosure I did not run out and buy one, I need another finisher about as much as I need the 8 inches of snow that just fell...

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Would you seriously want to test a bad one?!
How about a trade? one of the "great ones" for a so so one?
I have a not good opinion of them, and, I'd love to try a good one.

My first Jnat was SLOOOOW and I hated it until recently. Now its one of my favs. So that ties in with everything. More time and experience and try something different with any stone. Dont do the same thing and expect different results. There arent too many bad stones, theyre just misunderstood! LOL.

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Originally Posted by RoyalCake

Can I send you the guy pushing the steel across a Zulu?? I'll put myself in the mail... :)

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Come on up !!!!! Dress for snow hehehe

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

Would you seriously want to test a bad one?!

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Well yes, I have already tested two that worked fine, so yes I would like to test a "Bad" one,,,, just like the PHIG's when I tested those also, even had to go back to that thread and correct it when I figured out how to make those "Bad" ones work ok... Looking at the PHIGS for instance you can find a distinct difference in the grit/slurry and the way it feels as you work the razor, In the end you just had to adjust the honing regime to get a better result... But there were distinct differences in the stones ...


What exactly is wrong with the bad Zulu's ??? Inclusions ???, Toxic layer, ???? hard grit ???
Or is this something that works, but doesn't work to your expectations ????
I read your post but I didn't really see what the "Problem" was


Keep in mind I don't own a Zulu, nor do I have a dog in the fight I am just interested as to why ??? much like I was interested as to why when I read a thread saying the King 1k doesn't set bevels well, when I have never had and issue with one...
But if you are comparing a King 1k to a Chosera 1k, then yep, it doesn't set bevels as well :)


I can understand if you are saying, "I tried the stone and it didn't work up to my expectations" if that is what it is, then nope I don't want to waste anytime at all testing another Zulu

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Well yes, I have already tested two that worked fine, so yes I would like to test a "Bad" one,,,, just like the PHIG's when I tested those also, even had to go back to that thread and correct it when I figured out how to make those "Bad" ones work ok... Looking at the PHIGS for instance you can find a distinct difference in the grit/slurry and the way it feels as you work the razor, In the end you just had to adjust the honing regime to get a better result... But there were distinct differences in the stones ...


What exactly is wrong with the bad Zulu's ??? Inclusions ???, Toxic layer, ???? hard grit ???
Or is this something that works, but doesn't work to your expectations ????
I read your post but I didn't really see what the "Problem" was


Keep in mind I don't own a Zulu, nor do I have a dog in the fight I am just interested as to why ??? much like I was interested as to why when I read a thread saying the King 1k doesn't set bevels well, when I have never had and issue with one...
But if you are comparing a King 1k to a Chosera 1k, then yep, it doesn't set bevels as well :)


I can understand if you are saying, "I tried the stone and it didn't work up to my expectations" if that is what it is, then nope I don't want to waste anytime at all testing another Zulu

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No, I haven't found any inclusions, in that case, it would be just that one stone. It could be a bad layer, or maybe a couple of bad layers. Hard grit, I'm not sure what that means.
And, no, it's not like comparing a Chocera with a king, unless we are talking about speed, where, yes, I see some similarities.


I'm not a new guy at razors, or honing.
I know what a bevel set means, what not enough strokes means, or a flat stone means, what is defined as slow stone that needs more time in refining an edge, inclusions, and above all, what an enjoyable edge feels like.
I have tried about every stone that was commercially available on the last century. And enjoyed all of them. If not all, a 98% of the finishing grade stones. Yes, not all coticules are good finishers, there are Charnleys with inclusions, Yellow lake stones with sparkly mica like particles that drop their grit although they look fine, other slates that don't have enough cutting power to be considered hones, and a many many other cases were stones that would otherwise be great finishers, are not.
What I don't like on the Zulu stones I tried is, they are not fine enough.
An 8k stone, no matter how you see it, or how many laps you try on them, oil, water, dry, still feel like an 8k stone.
It's not overhoning, underhoning, lack of my experience, or something wrong I did. I also tried edges from other people with the same stone.
My conclusion is, the stone was not fine enough to be considered a finisher, as simple as that.

It wouldn't take much for me to conclude that Zulus perform with the same consistency or lack of consistency as coticules, PHIGs and most other natural stones. I have had 5 coticules, 5 jnats and 2 PHIGs and quite a few single stone purchases. Most were different from any of the others and it seems from the above posts that Zulus are just as prone to inconsistency as any other natural stone.

I just sold mine only Zulu because I have finishers that are much faster than 100-200 laps. Buying a natural stone is like buying a box of chocolates; you never know what you will get.......:gl:

From the looks of Utopian he has seen a few finishers and bevel setters come and go in his day...

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Finishers and bevel setters...

There's always a better one out there waiting its turn.

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Originally Posted by WW243

How about compared with your Jnats?

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Faster and at least same kind of edge, may be even smoother

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Originally Posted by WW243

From the looks of Utopian he has seen a few finishers and bevel setters come and go in his day...

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Come?
Yes!!!

Go?
:roflmao

I want to get a Shapton 30k.