There are some older threads on Zulu Grey, Suehiro 20k, and shapton 30k. I'd like a refresh.
Can the current users please report? Compare and contrast to other stones especially appreciated.
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There are some older threads on Zulu Grey, Suehiro 20k, and shapton 30k. I'd like a refresh.
Can the current users please report? Compare and contrast to other stones especially appreciated.
I like the Suehiro 20k very much. Used on an already shave ready razor it enhances the edge/feel perceptibly. I've never had a Zulu so I cannot comment on that. I did have a Shapton Pro 30k but sold it a few years back. At that time I had the Shapton Pro set from 1k to 30k but found, at the level of honing skills I then had, I probably did not appreciate the 30k and rarely used it. The 15k seemed to be enough.
I don't know if I would feel the same now. The only finisher I can compare to the Suehiro is the yellow green Escher and I find that I use it most of the time. I am not saying it is "better", rather that I've become accustomed to the feel of the edges off of the Escher and prefer them to any other stone I've tried. As in all things wet shaving ....... YMMV.
Thanks for the reply. What other stones have you really liked in the past?
Well I really like the Norton 4k/8k single grits that I've had for many moons. I'm liking the Chosera 1,3,5 and 10k, and they threaten to keep the Nortons in the cabinet. I've had the Naniwa super stones, the Shapton pros, a variety of naturals.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgjgjg
There are some coticules that I like, and others not so much. I've only had one J-nat, a Nakayama Asagi that come from So Yamashita, and was an excellent stone at a medium price point.
I've had a number of Eschers come and go, some stayed, and I never met one of those I didn't like. Some of the stones, particularly naturals, make me wonder, when I'm not getting the results I'm after, is it me or the stone ? :thinking:
I have a Blue/Green Escher and a Zulu Grey. Since I purchased the Gokumyo 20K, those two stones haven't even seen water. I can do 10-20 laps on the Gokumyo and be good to go after the 12K Naniwa. The Zulu Grey seemed to take forever and with little result. The Escher was very nice, and probably as good as the Gokumyo, but the big Gokumyo is a treat to use.
I have had the ZG & 30K and have to say that from what I know I would recommend the 30K last. I'm a GS junkie and love the system...but sold off my 30K as it got used maybe 5x a year. Very few razors can handle that stone & fewer people even will know what I am talking about with that statement. I have not had the 20K in my hands, so can't make a recommendation between the first two listed.
You guys have to quit talking about the 20K, it's getting too much press for me to not have one!
I have the 30K Pro-version, the 20K Gokumyo and have pkayed around with two ZG's. Imho, the top spot easily belongs to the Suehiro.
Break down and buy it buddy, you will not regret it!
I also use the Shapton GS system up to 16k. I have lot's of different finishers, but since I've picked up the Suehiro G 20k, it's pretty much the only one I use. For me, it's hard to beat that edge.
Sorry Scott!
I use the Zulu often as a finisher. The Zulu is a very slow hone, in my opinion, it is best used with a 320 diamond surface prep as is in the instructions to work at its best. Perhaps, that is to allow a hard hone to not load up as fast with the honing swarf. The Thuringians, in my opinion, cut faster at the higher levels.
I have not tried man mades over 8K other than great barber hones. Some of the ones I have can go up to 15K in a few laps.
As always, steel, hone, water, and hand make the complete honing process.
~Richard
I too have all three. Full Shapton GS set and that's the only reason I still have the 30k. Haven't given the Zulu much to do, but the Gokumyo 20k is excellent.Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
@Scott......PM me your address and I'll send you my 20k and you can try it for awhile. I'm currently mesmerized by my Nakayama Maruichi Kitta anyway. :D
Howard :)
By the grace of God, I have both! One is a natural, the Zulu, and the Suehiro 20k is Syntetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgjgjg
I like them both, but if I could have one only, it will be a hard decision, but I would have to say the Suehiro.
The Suehiro benefit most from a prefinisher like a Naniwa 12k or Shapton glass 16K. The Zulu does benefit also, but it can go from the 8k to the Zulu with very good success also.
They both give good shaves and the edges feel smooth. They have different feel on the face but I like them both. The edges properly finished on the Suehiro 20k are sharper and remove more hair per passes than the edges on the Zulu. A very good edge on the Suehiro 20k can remove 97-98% of my hairs in two passes and the best edges on the Zulu could remove maybe 94-96% of my hairs with the same passes. Both would give me 100% BBS with very little to no irritation.
The reason I would choose the Suehiro is because it's consistency ( like most good synthetics stones) it's easier to get a good edge consistently than with the Zulu. No matter what steel, if the edge is good out of the 16k, 12-16 passes is all you need for an awesome shave.
However. The Zulu has value. I use many more passes (175) and may have to tweak the edge on the Zulu more than on the Suehiro, but both give me close and comfortable shaves. The Zulu close to half price over the Suehiro.
Double O
+1 Double O.
I normally go from my Shapton 16k to the Suehiro 20k. It does benefit from a pre finisher....
The Zulu gave me really smooth feeling edges. But if you like an edge where hair separates at the mere sight if the razor, the Suehiro will get you there fast. I had mixed results with the Zulu. Sometimes I got a great edge, other times not so much. The one thing that made the Zulu harder to figure out was the fact that it cut so slowly. You never knew if you were maxed out on it or in need of more work. The Suehiro gives great results after 20 or 30 laps…..but the edge is different. In the end, I found that I simply preferred the edges from the two little Jnats that I have over the Zulu. I use them or the Suehiro to finish now. The small Jnats that I have can be difficult to use with blades that have a smile or that require rolling x strokes. So I have the Suehiro for anything that makes the Jnat’s job difficult. But you have to decide what kind of edge you prefer. The Suehiro edge will never require pastes or sprays. If you go that route, you’ll never need those again. But you may prefer a different edge that only a natural can deliver and the Zulu may agree with you more than a synthetic. If you have the time to invest, send two similar razors to someone who has both. Have them finish them on each and see how you like them. But nothing makes the job easier than the Suehiro. Whether it’s the best option for you is debatable but I doubt you will dislike it.
Jimmy,Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
If you want to try a ZG, PM me your address & I will ship it out. I'm still hung up on my old faithful escher after 16K & hardly use it any more.
Where can you get the Suehiro 20k from?
Search Results : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by clamup1
Howard :)
Enough with the Suehiro talk - I'm only human!! Am I going to have to bury my credit card (again)?!
I do appreciate the offer, thank you very much, but if I did like it that would mean I'd have to get one so I'd rather just be satisfied with what I've got and put the $ into something sensible, like another rifle ......... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
or ammo:rofl2:
Not sure if the underlying thread here so far is really obvious :)
JimmyHAD - "Used on an already shave ready razor it enhances the edge/feel perceptibly."
Ace - "and be good to go after the 12K Naniwa"
Shooter - "Very few razors can handle that stone & fewer people even will know what I am talking about with that statement"
Geezer - "As always, steel, hone, water, and hand make the complete honing process"
Double0 - "The Suehiro benefit most from a prefinisher like a Naniwa 12k or Shapton glass 16K. The Zulu does benefit also, but it can go from the 8k to the Zulu with very good success also"
Zib - "I normally go from my Shapton 16k to the Suehiro 20k. It does benefit from a pre finisher"
Note that most everyone is explaining how they get to the stage before the finish, :hmmm:
Glen is right, BUT the suehiro can do a great job as long as the edge leading up to it is worthy. I use chosera thru 10k, then 15k and 20 suehiro. I just ordered a suehiro 10k, thats how much I like them. And of course you guys left out a Jnat. Takes the cake IMO if you dont mind being frustrated while you learning.
Glen,
As always you are on point;)...we all know that if you don't have a proper honing foundation...a finishing stone isn't going to help honing abilities a bit. :aargh:
You guys are killing me...I just spent 28,500 yen. REAL good friends around here, ya bunch of enablers.
Let's face it. You were just doing what had to be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
What's cool about this place is the friendships you develop. Guys sending stuff around to one another just because...saying "try this". ��
I agree, and furthermore I wouldn't call most of the stones "pre-finishers" either. As far as I am concerned the 10 and 12k naniwa ss and shapton 16k gs are finishers. If used to shorten a gap for a higher grit stone then sure, they are being used as prefinishers or intermediate steps, bu lets not lose sight that they are finishers in their own right.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I have always believed in doubling up on the next hone in the progression as far as is practical, for instance anything over 10k would be overkill for the 20k, and only of use to speed up the last stages of honing, even though with synthetics this is by no means slow in the first place.
Usually when we follow a finisher with another hone all we are doing is altering the previous stones characteristics, like following up with a pasted paddle.
As has been said, if the edge is not spot on before the 20k it will hardly be so after it. A good point that shouldn't really need to be re-iterated: as far as I can see practitioners and enablers of the art like Lyn and Glen have made this absolutely clear since the early days of the forum.
So, what are my Zulu and SG20 edges like? The Zulu I found to be an interesting hone rather than a stand-out hone. It was also hard to fit it into a progression. I tried a couple of examples over a fairly long time, putting all sorts and ages of razors on it. The type and age of steel (other than extremely hard steel) didn't seem to matter: it worked at the same slow, tedious rate on all of them, giving a perfectly acceptable edge that gave a fine, smooth shave. If I hadn't experienced a lot of other hones before I came across the Zulu I would probably not have looked any further. One example was a little troublesome inasmuch as tbe hone had what I can only call a slight inclusion that made honing feel a little gritty and not nice. Lapping would solve the problem, but it would appear again, usually during the last few honing strokes. Hooray for wetsaws with thin diamond blades - that solved the problem! The other example has the same affliction, but to amuch lesser extent. If tbe Zulu was much faster the slight sporadicgritty feeling wouldn't have bothered me, but the grittiness combined with the slowness along with the length of time taken to lap it as well as a few other trifling issues has put me off it. Besides, I can get a better edge with many of the same qualities in less time with a decent thuringian.
The SG20 has been used for quite a long period now, again with razors of all types and age. It does seem to benefit some steel formulations more than others. I think this is primarily due to the degree of edge attenuation it can achieve - older lower temper steel varieties for instance cannot maintain the bevel left by the SG20. A high power loupe is essential for me to assess the edge. Finishing an old Sheffield on it leaves what looks like a perfect bevel. Examination of the edge after stropping shows a jagged edge due to the inherent lower temper of tbe steel - it just microchips. Dropping down to a 12k synthetic (or better still a decent coticule) gives a less attenuated edge that the razor can maintain. You would expect a major drop in shave performance, but this is not the case - the old Sheffield finished on its lower grit hone shaves perfectly well, good enough to compare to a lot of more recent razors finished on the SG20.
More modern razors with a higher tempered steel are finished admirably by the SG20 in very short time. The edge would be scary sharp, but the hone manages to introduce a taming element that gives shaving a rather smooth feel.
It does display a strange phenomenon with some steels, but I have not tested enough to narrow it down yet. Similar to the look of the bevel on old Sheffields after honing and stropping but finer and less pronounced, it gives you the idea that you have overhoned, which might well be the case sometimes. However a close look under the loupe shows a faint double line at extreme bevel tip that appears to be a microfin. I prefer to call it a false bevel, and after some experimentation found that giving, say, 20 laps on the hone, then slurrying the hone and giving the blade a few half laps on each side, washing off the slurry and giving another 5 to 10 laps gets rid of the problem (after having gone back to the previous hone first, that is).
If the problem persists then dropping back to a shapton 15k or 16k glass stone is usually all that is necessary. A very thin slurry on the 16k gs removes any harshness and approximates the SG20 quite well. In fact if shapton addressed the tendency of the 16k gs to display differential movement and made it as thick as the SG20 for a reasonable price, it would be my finisher of choice.
Regards,
Neil
You got a good exchange rate, or a price drop. Last year they were $30,860 yen, $301.60 w/shipping. I think you'll really like it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
Howard :)
[QUOTE=OCDshaver;1293827The small Jnats that I have can be difficult to use with blades that have a smile or that require rolling x strokes.[/QUOTE]
Could you expand on that please?
jgjgjg,
If you are new to honing, I truly recommend starting out with touching up your razors first. With that being said, I also only recommend a new honer to learn off synthetics first as they are all relatively the same no matter if I come to your house and use your stones or you come to my house and use my stones. Natural stones have a personality just like we do and learning a stones personality isn't something a new honer needs to worry about. A new honer needs to learn how to feel what is going on first, this is the honing foundation we talk about. Naniwa, Norton, and Shapton are the most used hones here. You will get a lot of opinions of which is a preference, but they are all very nice stones and just preference from there. So if you are looking for a quality finisher, my first recommendation would be a Naniwa 12K or Shapton GS 16K. Again, I can't speak for the 20K you mentioned...yet...dang you!
[QUOTE=shooter74743;1294406]jgjgjg,
If you are new to honing, I truly recommend starting out with touching up your razors first. [QUOTE]
That's great advice.
I am relatively new to 1) honing razors and 2) jnats&coticules. I have deep experience honing a dizzying array of edge tools ranging from lathe cutters for inconel to machete's, to woodworking, rubber slicing, and carving tools on both synthetics (esp. Shapton) and natural 'oilstones' of all kinds. About the only thing I haven't experienced are concave blades, and I avoid "bear claw" shaped objects intentionally.
I will observe that razors are farther out on the "niche" and "nitpickiness" scales than any other edge tool I've dealth with. Really, I think the only thing left for me are surgical scalpels, and as far I know those are all disposable now as a matter of industry mandate. I also suspect that any edge suitable for what we do in shaving is probably correct for removing an appendix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
There is the essence of the whole thing,,,
I have thought to myself many times reading threads here, geez there is only so much steel there to finish :thinking: (re-read what Neil posted about having to back the edges down he explains it well)
But it really comes down to the term "Shave Ready" and where your honing is at regarding that term..
Going way back, the advice has always been "Until you can get a smooth comfortable shave consistently at the "8k level", buying a finisher will be a waste of money" personally I still believe that... Actually the trend toward people trying to buy their way to an edge, was why I changed my sig line to ""No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly"
Neil and Shooter both have also touched on a subject little discussed here too, about matching the Hone to the Steel, some do not believe that even exists, others of us are positive it does... That is something you have to work out with your razors and your faces..
Ahhhh the wonderful world of finishers, where we all disagree and spend tons of money :rofl2:
Just to be honest I clicked the like on gssixgun and Neil Miller posts but I only understood about half of what they were saying....I clicked like because I like the fact that I have a lot to learn and for me honing has been the most fun part of my foray into the straight razor universe. So having said that, I have used a Zulu and a small Escher. This is probably a shallow thing on my part, but so far on 3 naturals I have tried and my Chosera's, nothing gives me the satisfying tactile feeling of the steel on the Escher and I cannot justify spending on the Suehiro (But I will if my deal on a larger Escher falls through). I actually had paid for a Suehiro then ran a car off the road at 65 MPH and my discretionary income fund got depleted in about 7 seconds.
Both stones are small and best used in hand. One of them is short and narrow. I have a hard time getting a large blade (my W&B FBU) on it with enough room to comfortably roll it across the stone. I also find rolling strokes more comfortable when there is a little more length to the hone. I feel I can make gradual changes to the edge contact rather than having to quickly roll from heel to toe in a short distance. It can probably be done but its not very comfortable to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgjgjg
So, the options for the thread are Suehiro 20k, Shapton 30k, and... the Zulu stone? Not Eschers, Charnleys, Jnats but the Zulu? Since when does that mediocre finisher fit in the hall of the greatest finishers? To put it as subtly as possible, and answer your question in the same time, It's a stone with big variations from piece to piece, with the majority of stones being prefinishers. Try something more reliable like man made ones, the Suehiro for example, or for naturals, an Escher. For the same price you can get one of those too.
I would disagree with you on "mediocre finisher". I have used the Zulu in many razors and some razor respond very well to it which can stand next to an Escher or Suehiro 20k. I would not call it the best finisher, but definitely a good one IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasilis
The problem with the Zulu, I think, is that it's a relatively new stone and we still experimenting with it to get consistency. My best and most consistent edges (without going to the Shapton glass 16k first) has been to start with a lapped stone on the 325 DMT or 400 Atoma, do some laps (~40-60), then dress the surface with something like a 1200 Atoma do some more laps before going to the other side (lapped on 1200 Atoma then dry sanded with a 1500 paper) an do more laps on water only or smith honing solution. Guarantee that in some razors it will stand to an Escher edge!
Better and most consistent, get a nice edge out of the 16k Shapton glass then to the polished side of the Zulu, with water or smith honing solution.
Also some razors respond well with a very very light slury on the 1200 Atoma dress side.
The Escher is faster and the distinctive buttery feel you don't get out of the Zulu, however to buy an 8x3 turi will cost me 3-5 times as much as the same size Zulu.
I don't want to come as pushing the Zulu, I'm just expressing my option on a stone that I believe has value for someone on a budget or want to deep his toe on a good natural first. Double O
Have one. Glad I bought it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double0757
I knew we were going there... Very well, I have tried 4 of them, had plenty of time to test them, and all of them were a disappointment. Yes, they kind of feel better than a norton 8k, but between a Norton 8x3" and a Zulu 8x3" stand about 150$.
You can try a Chinese stone. Or a Welsh one. Good ones from both feel better than a Zulu and cost a fraction of money.
It's not about inconsistent results from the stone. I get consistent results from every stone I have including those. It's about the not keen edge at all I get for a 150$ worth of stone.
Until a few days ago I thought that all of them were awful, but I talked with a friend who had one of the "awesome" ones, and confirmed that there are very few great, and the rest of them, as he bought a second one, and it was like mine... You don't know what you bought until you try it.
Like... the C12k. Which is slow. Like the Zulu. And, gives an edge as good as an Escher. Like the Zulu.
But, hey, a 50$ stone can't possibly compare with a 200$ one, right? You get what you pay for.
The whole hype about the Zulu stone is because, if someone likes it, he'll boast about it in as many opportunities as he'll get. If someone doesn't like it on the other hand, he'll forget that he bought it, it really feels bad that he spend 100+$ on something that doesn't worth it. And maybe if the new guys are lucky, he'll mention it once.
If for no other reason, I have found that being able to put a very shaveable edge using only my Naniwa progression gives you a standard. It's one thing to send out a razor to get honed up to shave ready so you know what it's like, but then when you start messing with and bring it back down, you've lost your comparison. I know you can keep it aside and do a different razor, but there's something about comparing the edge during experimentation with the same exact blade.
The only reason my fairly recent dive into the naturals hasn't made my head explode is cause I know I can just go back to the naniwas, bring the edge back, and try again. Not having that ability would make it maddening cause once you've lost the edge, it's hard to make comparisons soley from memory going forward.
I feel the same! Double OQuote:
Originally Posted by RoyalCake
I have a second coming and would be able to confirm it first hand. I didn't know they where as inconsistent like the Chinesse 12k. Thanks for the info, first time I hear about it! Double OQuote:
Originally Posted by Vasilis