In my search for a narrow bevel setter, I wonder if a Coticule would work, I know some of them are better for tools; maybe one of those would work.
Thanks, Dave
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In my search for a narrow bevel setter, I wonder if a Coticule would work, I know some of them are better for tools; maybe one of those would work.
Thanks, Dave
It would work but it may take some time depending on the grit of the coticule and the condition of the razor.
I would go for a nice synthetic it will do the job a lot faster.
You CAN use a Coticule as bevelsetter, but the coticules are naturel stones, so there is no way of knowing how fast they cut or what grit they have.
I have four coticules and they are all great finishers. I tried to hone with different coticules but they where ale great finishers.
I recommend a Naniva Super stone 1000K as bevel setter. That's a great stone, very fast and precise. And I think it's underrated on forums like this.
But a great stone and cheap to.
Using coticules as bevelsetter takes lot of time and patience. If you press to hard you ruin the spine. That is reason I would use a Naniwa.
Attachment 180590
You might like to try a 3 nagura stone set of 3 different grits on your coticule to see if results can be achieved.
I believe it's called "one-stone" honing...................
If you could find a Coticule from one of the lower veins like this one of mine they make AWESOME bevel setters
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Yeppers AWESOME
I think it is called the lower Chosera vein :rock: :rofl2:
ps: want a narrow one ??? take a pencil and draw a line lengthwise down the hone and shift the honing area to one side of the line and it does the exact same thing as a narrow hone :)
No really it does
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian
Great Idea Kristian, I have 2 of them, now show me a narrow stone I can use.
and JERRY, I don't think the Botan will give me enough "grit" for a plumb dull razor.
Dave
Why do you want a narrow hone? If the hone is narrow you increase the possibility of uneven hone wear. That's not good, especially not on bevel setting.
I would use a large coticule like 20x7,5cm or 17x5 cm. as bevel setting I would use hard pressure and circle movements. With lot of slurry - almost mud.
When the bevel is almost set, I would use rolling x-strokes.
The most important thing when honing is the bevel setting.
I'll go for the 1000k Naniwa or King any day and use the coticule for the rest..
Yeppers AWESOMEQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Your a riot Glen, I have the #800 version and , yes, it is awesome.
I thank all of you for the education/sugestions but maybe I should rephrase the question.
Do you know of a narrow natural stone that would make a good bevel setter, if a Coticule, which vein?
Thank you.
I honestly don't :(
I tried to make an all natural set up a couple of times, there is no doubt there are several ways to "Make Do" but the 1k-ish Synthetics are just so good at what they do that it makes it a niche / eclectic way of bevel setting not to use them..
Sorry
if you want a fast coticule you should look for one with a pinkish hue or pink dots, that's apparently an indication that it will be fast.
for the rest I thought that the La Dresante and Les Latneuses can be quite fast (see: http://www.coticule.be/rep1.html ) but you know how it is, you need te get lucky as well. If you ask Maurice at Ardennes Coticule nicely he might just pick the hone you are looking for ;)
you could also go for a 40 X 200 mm Belgium Blue Whetstone, it is thin, doesn't cost to much and it is long so you can make longer strokes which should make some difference.
there is also the La pyrenee glued to a BBW but they are sold a bit wider at 50 mm (I haven't used these myself)
I would still recommend you to get the Chosera and put it on its side if you realy want a thin hone, but if you are dead set on a natural bevel setter the La Pyrenee could be your hone
Same here, I've never found a natural stone under 3k stone that is better than the equivalent synthetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I hand one,maybe two, coticules that I would use to set bevels. And that would only be on a hollow ground razor. I'd never try it on a near wedge. You'd be there for days on even the fastest coticules.
Id go with a chosera. But if you are set on a coticule a hybrid Les Lat, La Dresssante, or La Veinette would be good options. Manganese lines normally relate to a fast stone but they are natural stones so results will vary.
I have a La Veinette that is very fast on slurry but is a super fine finisher on water. But out of the 100 or so coticules I have owned I have only had 2 that act like this.
Get a Chosera and a coticule and that will be all you need.
Honestly I'd use the edge of the Chosera. But if you want a natural bevel setter, I'd ask Alex Gilmore at thejapanstone.com to cut me a 1" wide piece of fast suita and I'd use a diamond plate to slurry it to get dense slurry. A fast piece of suita slurried this way is capable of setting a bevel even though it's pretty fine, probably about 4k synth equivalent. An alternative might be getting Dan's to cut you a 1" wide fast piece of Washita/soft Arkansas.
Cheers, Steve
What I am getting from this thread is "don't use naturals/Coticules for bevel setting". Use synthetics.
Is that about right?
It was just a thought........
I think what you're getting is that in the typical grit range for bevel setters, synthetics are easier, faster, and cheaper. You can set a bevel with a coticule and heavy slurry, but it might well take you 5 times as long. Why bother unless you just want to? A suita will work (I know someone who uses one at least sometimes for bevel setting) and be faster than a coticule. And cost more than the Chosera. A Washita will work, but be slower than the synth. I don't know about a custom cut, probably not too bad for an Ark.
Cheers, Steve
O.K., dta116 made me dig out a small Okuda suita and put it to the test as a bevel setter. The razor is an old Joseph Rodgers hollow that is a failed eBay purchase, well-worn but still shaves really well.
The razor was dulled on glass and tested via the cherry tomato to confirm the bevel was not set. The edge was dull. I raised a good slurry on the stone with the diamond plate, gave it two sets of twenty circles followed by 40 x-strokes. If the bevel isn't set, it's 95%+, again verified by the cherry tomato test. You can see the darkness in the slurry, which started out very pale.
So yes, a fast suita should do you fine as a bevel setter.
Cheers, Steve
Thanks Steve, that should work......
Dave
That is the best way to go IME. After trying many of the 'usual suspects' I found the rumors that the Chosera 1k was hard to beat as a bevel setter were true. I have had quite a few coticules and only one was half decent as a bevel setter. It wasn't real good as a finisher. So, as the old saying goes, 'you pays your money and you takes your chances.'Quote:
Originally Posted by dta116
With naturals as bevel setters it is more of a gamble that you'll find the characteristics you're looking for, unless you buy one from a trusted source who tells you the straight scoop on it. With a synthetic such as the Chosera there is no hit or miss, you've seen one, you've seen 'em all. I can appreciate the desire to do it all with naturals. I've 'been there and done that', but nowadays I prefer expediency to nostalgia.
I regularly use a coticule of one of the faster layers for bevel setting (Les Latneuses, La Petite Blanche, La Veinette come to mind).
It works perfectly.
However, when there is a lot of work to do I switch to a DMT. I haven't tried a stone faster than a diamond hone.
Ive set bevels many times on any coticule I've had/have. Wet the slurry stone not the hone. Raise slurry keep going no water till you get a creamy paste. Tape spine add a drop of water and a bit more pressure. Do not dilute but do not let dry out. Takes a little longer but have never had a problem bevel setting a dull edge on a coticule. from there on I remove the tape.
best would be to get a coticule that self slurrys alot. a friend of mine has one. works great and is pretty fast on bevel setting.
There are synthetics not far off diamond speed but less destructive on edges which, can make the process faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by decraew
Sometimes yes, but not always a guarantee of a fast cutter. A hard coti can also be a fast cutter. Certainly a stone with a rep for speed is a good place to start but then the hunt for the ideal stone is only beginning. Ironically not many,if any, naturals will be as expedient as a synthetic for bevels.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMagnus
Best thing there was a for warped blades. I do this pretty frequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
A good option for a natural bevel setter would be a lily white washita. I had one that I used for a while but didn't care for the oily mess. Works great but the one I had wasn't as fast as a chosera.
This is true IME if you limit yourself to looking at naturals with a grit equivalence of around 1k to 2k synthetic or so. There are stones that will work, but they are not common, and tend to be very soft and expensive, as in more than the Chosera.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
However, if it cuts fast enough, there's no reason not to look at finer stones. The suita I used in the above post is likely around 4-5k synthetic and is typical, not a wonderful example. Suitas are fairly common although good ones are valued by woodworkers both in Japan and here, and can be expensive for a large, good example. But the little stone I used cuts as fast as a Chosera 1k but is considerably finer. On that particular one, I'd probably stick a pre-finisher in the lineup after it, but many would not need that.
Just to be clear, I am speaking of bevel setting on a sound blade, not chip removal or "course correction".
Cheers, Steve
When I think of setting a bevel on a Coticule it reminds me of that picture of a skeleton sitting in front of a computer with cobwebs and someone passing by and saying "computer been down long?"
I'm a believer in the right tool for the right job.
Yep the 'right" Suita could do the job but at 2-3x the cost & time of a good 1k.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
Personally I've used my Tsushima brick also but could do the job in half the time on my Shapton.
Again true in general. The stone I used was bought from Takeshi-San as a nagura even though it is 210mm long. I paid $35 for it. I did pick out an ugly iron line, and I take it is actually an edge trimming from a larger piece.
I'm kind of looking for a larger, faster suita, but I can say from the few I have, they're about as fast as a Chosera or Shapton, and I currently use a Shapton Pro 2k most of the time as a bevel setter. The suita is faster than my 600 Chosera, and its an ordinary suita.
It would be interesting to get So-San's take on it.
Cheers, Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
So's very pragmatic & unless he's changed his mind since we last spoke he'd recommend a synthetic till 6k or 8k for razors. The Suita I first bought from him was to fit that role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
Yes, I seem to remember this was somewhere on his site at one time, maybe still is. Your memory is the second thing to go when you get old, I can't remember what the first is...
Thanks for the reminder!
Cheers, Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
Sorry, need to catch up here, who is So-San?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodb
These quotes answer your question perfectly. I too have wanted a natural progression, but IME there is no better bevel setter than a synthetic like a Chosera 1K. Some are faster like the shapton gs series, but you had better use tape if you have some bevel work to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
I have spent thousands of dollars on stones over the years and have found what works for me. I like to get to the finish line as quick as I can as easy as I can, then match the finisher to the particular razor's need. Setting a bevel on a polishing stone of course can be done done...but why? Use a bevel setter, then a pre polisher, a polisher, and a finisher for a razor.
So Yamashita, toolsfromjapan.com. He's a stone supplier in Oz, he and his father are a significant source of info on Japanese stones.
Cheers, Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by dta116
Actually that's not him. So is Japan-tool.comQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
You are correct. Result of posting with an acute coffee deficiency early a.m. Apologies for the incorrect info.
Cheers, Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
I have a BBW on the back of a coticule that can really set a bevel quick with a good slurry.
Thanks to everyone that replied to this thread, it really simplifies the decision making process when all get involved. I can tell you the answer is here for all of those wishing the same wish and realizing through the experience of others.
Thanks again. Dave
