8000 --> 15000 --> CrOx

I'm looking for a hone after my norton 8K. I'm considering buying a Suehiro Gokumyo either a 15K or 20K. My question is with regard to jumping from 8K to 12K is that too much of a jump.

How about from 8K to 20K (Suehiro Gokumyo) also come in a 20K variety. Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this?

My other questions is I'm thinking about using CrOx again as I miss it. I'm going to sand the back of my current leather strop with some 2K sand paper and paste with CrOx powder. Does anyone know if this will work as well as on balsa?
　
Thanks in advance for the help guys.
Cheers

Jumping from 8k to 12k is perfectly fine and is what I do with my naniwa stones. I then follow up on a jnat with a grit of around 15k.
I do not have any experience with the gokumyo stone, but I would think that it is too high a jump from the 8k.

As far as CrOx, it works great on Balsa. I like to use Puma paste. It is in stick form and easy to apply, If you spray CrOx mixed in a water solution it will warp your balsa.

8k JIS to the Gokumyo 20k is fine, I used to do it all the time. The 20k is a very fast cutter. Not sure if the Norton 8k is JIS or mesh though, 8k mesh to the 20k might be a bit much, can't say for sure as I've never tried it.

Harellson Stanley, the USA rep for Shapton said that doubling the grit, as in 4k to 8k, 8k to 16k is sort of a rule of thumb. I happen to have a 10k and go from there to 20k. I forget who it is offhand (oldtimer's disease) but I know at least one member has the 15 and 20k Suehiro. Personally I just "think" the 15k is an unnecessary step in the progression, but that is just what I think, not from hands on experimentation. If you've got the $ I would say a naniwa superstone 12k would be a nice jump. Then, if you still want to go on up, the 20k is the cat's whiskers IME.

Chrom-ox is good stuff. I've used it on felt, and on leather. I don't use it often because I have the high grit finishers and I can't see using a nickels worth of powder on an edge I've just honed with a $250.00 stone. If I'm shaving,doing a first pass, and I feel like the edge could be smoother I grab my SRD modular paddle and do 10 light round trips on chrom-ox on felt, then another 10 on the scrub leather on the flip side. That gets me to the second pass, and I put that razor aside to touch up on the hones. IMHO.

Hi Guys

Thanks for the response. I have to admit I may be out of my depth with all the acronyms etc. I'm not sure of the JIS standard is. The stone I have at the moment is a Norton 4000/8000 waterstone. I was hoping to go from the 8K straight to the 15K or 20K Gokumyo.

Badgister: I'm not sure what a jnat is? Is this a type of hone?

eKretz: What is JIS or mesh? Sorry I don't know the difference.

Thanks again.

Thanks for the advise JimmyHAD. When you say you have 'high finishers' what grit hones are you talking about 20K?

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Originally Posted by aquapura1

Thanks for the advise JimmyHAD. When you say you have 'high finishers' what grit hones are you talking about 20K?

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Technically the 8k is a 'high grit' finisher. At least 7 years ago it was considered so. You can get a great shave at the 8k level and if you're not able to hone a razor for a DFS (damn fine shave) at the 8k level you're not ready to go beyond that in grit. At least that is the way I was taught. Currently I am using a 1k, 5k, 10k and 20k progression a lot of the time. AFAIC, anything up to and over 8k is a finisher.

Shapton has the 15k pro, the 16k glass stone, the 30k in both of the aforementioned series. Naniwa has an 8 and a 12k in the super stone, a 10k in the chosera line. A j-nat is a Japanese natural stone. Natural stones, particularly j-nats are a field of knowledge unto themselves. A lot simpler, if you're beginning to stick with a synthetic progression. At least until you learn to hone well with what you have. Adding many various stones can complicate the process. Too much of a good thing. :)

Jimmy what would you recommend a 12K chinese superstone or a 20K Gokumyo?

+1 JimmyHAD. Though I'm new to str8 shaving, I'm not so new to sharpening. And the one thing that I have realized is that when it comes to honing, sharpening a knife, or just sanding wood (or other objects) with sandpaper, understanding particle size is key. This is one reason I like the micron scale better than the grit scale. It could be because of my scientific background, but that is no here nor there.

Any time you double the grit size (taking into consideration that you are only looking at only one of the many grit standards used across the world) you are in essence cutting the particle size in half. For example going from 220 grit sandpaper to 440 grit sandpaper, the particle size of the 220 is twice the size of the 440 grit. Or looking at hones:

an 8,000 grit stone will have a particle size of ~1.84 micrometers in diameter (microns),
16,000 grit = 0.92 micron (as per shapton)

7,500 grit = 2 micron
15,000 grit = 1 micron,
30,000 grit = 0.5 micron (whether stone or CrOx)

As you can see as you double grit in essence you are cutting the particle diameter down by half. In other words the 8,000 grit stone will cut half as deep as a 4,000 grit stone. So if you were wanting to create your own custom set of hones one of the easiest way to do it is to double your grit sizes per stone i.e.(1K, 2K, 4K, 8K, 16K, 30K). Yeah you can add a grit that is in between any two given sizes (i.e. 8,000 and 16,000) in order to reduce any work done on the higher grit, but i would not go past double the previous grit lest you want to do more work than necessary.

So In theory (only in theory) with all things being equal, if 20 passes of a 4K Stone takes out the scratches from a 2K stone, 20 passes on an 8K stone should take out the scratches caused by a 4K stone. But we rarely see this since there are so many variables when it comes to honing (i.e. skill of the honer, amount of pressure, differences between types of stones, slurry vs. no slurry, ect.), making honing into an art rather than a science.

In the higher grits, post 10K we can make large jumps easily and do often, with paste.

Chrome Ox is .50-30k grit, and we often make that jump from 8K. Diamond and CBN are often used at .25-60K, .125-120 grit and .10-160K all with no problem in making very large grit jumps.

When sanding, 1000K jumps are normal post 1K.

It is the deep stria, that presents problems and must be removed in smaller grit jumps. The closer the grit jumps the fewer the laps needed.

Personally I have been toying with the idea of a 20k Gokymuo, but doubt that it will do anything that high grit naturals and paste won’t do, especially for the cost of the 20k.

The 12k Super Stone is a go to finisher and with just a strop or Chrome ox will give a great edge. I believe a 12K Super Stone is a must, like a good 1K the middle stones do not matter as much as long as it is a smooth progression.

I would paste a separate strop, nylon, Poly or canvas for best result, especially if you have a nice leather strop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aquapura1

Jimmy what would you recommend a 12K chinese superstone or a 20K Gokumyo?

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I would suggest starting out with the 12k. It is way cheaper and a very useful stone. Great for finishing and for touching up. If you eventually get a 20k the 12k is a useful step between the 8k and the 20k. Unless you just have to have the so called ultimate, the 12k might be all you would ever want/need.

I have the Naniwa 4k 8k combo and go to the 12k from there. Works for me but if I were to buy stones today I would buy the Pro series nanaiwas. I have the pro 1000k and a 600k and they are both super fast. ( I only use the 600k for knives that are in bad shape, then go to the 1000k)

By adding the Naniwa SS 12K, you will have a more than adequate system to maintain and finish your blades. Anything beyond this is gravy so long as your puttin' in the work at the lower grit levels and achieving the proper results before proceeding to the higher grit stones and have a good bevel set.

About the Suehiro Gokumyo. After having previously used a stellar Nakayama finisher to put the final touches on my razors I have recently obtained the SG20K. It's my opinion that the beauty of this stone lies in its speed and ease of use. It has the capability to effortlessly improve a 12K edge. Splash and go, and if you have a nice edge at 12K, the 20K will make it so much better in about 60 seconds. Certainly these results can be obtained with other stones, but none so easily and quickly as with the SG20K.

My normal honing progression in a Norton 4k/8k then C12K followed by a CrOx paddle. I get great edges from these. Yours should too.

Hi Everyone

I'm once again overwhelmed by everyone's answers and quality of responses. Everyone has helped and i'm wiser for it. I think I'll probably get a 12K superstone for now and perhaps obtain the 20K further down the line.

:D thank again!

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aquapura1

Jimmy what would you recommend a 12K chinese superstone or a 20K Gokumyo?

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Just to be clear, there is no such thing as a 12k chinese superstone.
The 12k SuperStone is made by Naniwa (japanese).
A chinese natural stone is unfortunately and mistakenly referred to as a chinese 12k.

A chinese natural is $20-$30.
A Naniwa ss12k is about $75.
A 20k gokumyo is about $200.

Any of them will improve a properly honed 8k edge, but the Chinese stone will be variable in how well it does this.

The Gokumyo 20k is currently $250 at the cheapest place to buy it that I've seen, and usually is a bit north of that (it fluctuates based on the dollar to yen exchange rate). I think if you prefer going with a cheaper stone for now you'd be better served by the Naniwa than the Chinese stone - the Naniwa has many many very good reviews, the Chinese stone not so much. Actually, if you want to try a finisher, I will give you one of my new natural stones I've been using for the cost of shipping if you'd like to try using it. You can probably follow your Norton 8k with it just fine, but you'll get best results with a layer of tape after the 8k so you don't need to make a very large number of laps. I've found that the stone actually cuts finer than my Gokumyo 20k when used right, and really gives me a very good shave.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...hat-might.html

I have the 10-15 and 20K Gokumyo.
what I have found is that when coming off the Norton 8k, the 15 is the perfect balance of fineness vs speed.
one could also use the 20k, but that would require more quality strokes and a really refined 8k edge to work as well as possible

Hey mate,

Two weeks ago I received my Suehiro Gokumyo 20k. I jump from 12k to 20k, I'm thrilled. The Gok 20 is an exceptional stone. It is also a $300 stone. Go for it!

Just to add my 2 cents. I currently go from the 4/8 Norton to a Nani 12kSS. This gives me my best edges to date. I follow that with plain canvas then leather and it's buttery smooth. Jimmy is right, though, if you can't get a DFS from the 8k, you shouldn't even think of going further.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Harellson Stanley, the USA rep for Shapton said that doubling the grit, as in 4k to 8k, 8k to 16k is sort of a rule of thumb. I happen to have a 10k and go from there to 20k. I forget who it is offhand (oldtimer's disease) but I know at least one member has the 15 and 20k Suehiro. Personally I just "think" the 15k is an unnecessary step in the progression, but that is just what I think, not from hands on experimentation. If you've got the $ I would say a naniwa superstone 12k would be a nice jump. Then, if you still want to go on up, the 20k is the cat's whiskers IME.

Chrom-ox is good stuff. I've used it on felt, and on leather. I don't use it often because I have the high grit finishers and I can't see using a nickels worth of powder on an edge I've just honed with a $250.00 stone. If I'm shaving,doing a first pass, and I feel like the edge could be smoother I grab my SRD modular paddle and do 10 light round trips on chrom-ox on felt, then another 10 on the scrub leather on the flip side. That gets me to the second pass, and I put that razor aside to touch up on the hones. IMHO.

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Agree Jimmy, I go 1,4,6,8.10,20k, works for me, although I still wonder about filling the big gap 10 to 20, but I've not felt a need, emotionally I'd like the 15k, but do I really need it?

Bobski

My opinion out of the c12k and Naniwa ss 12k would be go the Naniwa as being synthetic it is actually 12k and guaranteed to perform. The c12k is a bit hit and miss and may or may not actually be 12k. You can get beautiful smooth edges off the Naniwa and you cant go wrong. And if in the future you do decide to go further then the Suehiro Gukumyo 20k is a magnificent stone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Birnando

I have the 10-15 and 20K Gokumyo.
what I have found is that when coming off the Norton 8k, the 15 is the perfect balance of fineness vs speed.
one could also use the 20k, but that would require more quality strokes and a really refined 8k edge to work as well as possible

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Hey,

Do you find the 15k gets little or even no use in the progression, from my POV most of us find the 10k to 20k GOK seems to work Ok, your opinion?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobski

Hey,

Do you find the 15k gets little or even no use in the progression, from my POV most of us find the 10k to 20k GOK seems to work Ok, your opinion?

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Yes, that is true.
I use it mostly on my single bevel Japanese kitchen knives these days to be honest.
When I first came across the Suehiro Gokumyo's a couple years back, they where pretty much an unknown entity in the Shaving communities, except perhaps the 10K.
So, as any true hone nut I decided to get all three of them, and figure them out myself:)
I did play around with the 10-15-20 progression for a bit buy found the 15 to be a redundant step pretty quickly.
On my cherished Yanagi ba's and Deba's though, it rocks.
And I get to separate my stones to each part of my honing hobby.

I would like to say thank you to everyone in this thread for all of the incredible advice. The best part of this is that we (the noobie clan) get the best of all of the knowledge and experience from you guys. I have now realized that I can do this but I am going to go slow and practice on straights that I have not spent a lot of money on but are still true straights. I can make a knife sharp enough for surgery, as my left index can attest to, so I should be able to make this work.

Thanks guys!

Cheers Kinghooper,

Main thing is, if you ultimately want to 'hone your own' is to get your 1st razor or thereabouts honed by a professional, so you will know just what to aim for, how a comfortable shave feels, how the edge feels on your thumb pad. Then you can use all the info on this forum to get you on your way, but that 1st one needs to be pro honed.

Regards, Bobski