When using a coticule (I have a La Grise natural combo), would it be a good idea to use another finisher? I'm thinking of getting a C12k/C-NAT/PHIG, but I'm not sure if it will much of an improvement on the coticule edge or not?
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When using a coticule (I have a La Grise natural combo), would it be a good idea to use another finisher? I'm thinking of getting a C12k/C-NAT/PHIG, but I'm not sure if it will much of an improvement on the coticule edge or not?
Well sure you can get another finisher and go to it following the coticule, but ...... I generally finish on a coticule when I want the typical gentle shaving edge the coticule gives. So if you went to the phig, or whatever, it will end up being that edge. I haven't fooled with the phig in years. Sold the one I had. At that time it was considered if you got a good one, it would be a lot of strokes, but it would leave a fine and smooth shaving edge. Not sure what the supply is like nowadays. The big feature at that time was the economy of the phig. They were inexpensive. IMO the naniwa 12k is a way better hone, but the price is higher too.
I'm also liking my coticule edge but I'm also experimenting with different stones to see if I can achive a better edge, so far, no luck, but the apache seems promising, A C12K I haven't tried but I can not realy imagine it to be any better, the La Grise coti layer is known as a slow but very smooth finishing coti (I think)
I think that the best thing to use after it is either a decently prepared black arkensas or a pasted strop (it could also be that my personal HAD is lingering towards those two as a next aquisitions...)
I really like the smooth edges the coticule gives, especially to the Sheffield razors. My experience has been most razors turn out very nice using a coticule but every now and again I run into one that needs a little something extra. For those I will try the C12K and if that doesn't solve the problem I have, on a few occasions with some German razors, gone to the translucent Arkansas.
I used to go coticule to PHIG. Both are naturals, so each one is different, but I found the edge of my C12k to be more to my liking. As Jimmy said, the coticules are known for giving smooth edges, but I wanted something a bit more keen than my coticule would get me. All about personal preference and what you can do with your stones. Can't hurt to try, if you can afford to foot the bill and put in the time.
Thuri, Cf, Apache, etc...
There is a whole bunch of possibilities ;-) i mostly prefer a Thuri or the Apache
ShaveWares,
For me, I like going to a Naniwa 12k afer my coticules (La Verte or La Veinette).
Again, for me, I find the edges off the coticule not quite 'crisp' enough.
Only your chops (nobody elses :)) will tell you whether you need to use another 'stone' after the coticules.
Have fun :)
Best regards
Russ
I use a coti and finish on the apache strata or red, like the edges off both the red is a new stone and I did the first edge off it yesterday it was superb, I may like the red more than the strata. time will tell, the china door stop I do not like, had 2 and neither was a finisher by my standard.
It really depend on your personal preference and how much you notice very slight differences in edge feel.
Having tried many finishers (16k naniwa, several j-nats, zulu gray, thuringian, etc.) I used to finish on a thuringian after my coticules. Lately though, I've been enjoying the edges straight off the coticules more than those off the thuringian. The difference between the two - to my skin - is very small (with the thuringian edge feeling the tiniest bit more mellow).
Yes, C12K are a crape shoot and probably not 12K. An Ark like, Stone face prep, makes a big difference. Mine is several years old, so I too do not know current production potential.
But really the stones you are talking about are about the same as far as grit performance.
When I use a Coticule, it is post 12K Super Stone and used for the smooth shaving finish.
Perhaps another stone is not your answer and you should look to paste, post your highest grit finisher, Diamond or CBN, then tailor the edge to your liking, as keen or smooth as you need.
A 12K Super Stone and a hanging Chrome Oxide strop are hard to beat and they have absolutely known, bullet proof performance.
then what kind of paste should I use to follow up a coticule?
crox is what most use if any, get the apache strata or red and don't worry about paste. your face will thank you for it. I can get a good shaving off just coti alone but with the red and strata exceptional.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaveWares
Agree completely. I shaved off my best la grise edge ever yesterday and it was really good. Much closer than I expected and very smooth. Today I used a razor that had a good but not great coti edge then finished on apache--just as smooth but noticeably closer especially in the areas that really test an edge against the grain. It adds the right amount of keenness without taking away smoothness from a good coti edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by kn4wd
I'd suggest not adding another stone, it will make things much more unclear. I take it from your posts that you are relatively new to honing, and as such it will take a while before you will consistently get optimal edges off your coticule. Until you get good edges off the coticule, another finisher will not add anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaveWares
IMO, even when you do get those consistently good edges, most other finishers won't add anything. They may change something in terms of feel, yes, but in my experience won't necessarily add much of anything.
For now, I suggest you patiently work with your coticule, starting with the unicot method. If you notice that your edge isn't quite there yet I'd suggest a balsa strop loaded with chromium oxide (until you get those good edges). Very effective, very cheap and pretty smooth in terms of feel on the skin.
I agree...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pithor
Finisher + Finisher has never made much sense to me but I see more and more people saying the same thing..
I have used a Coti with slurry as a pre-finisher when doing a Kamisori but that is a bit different altogether
“then what kind of paste should I use to follow up a coticule?”
It depends on what you are after.
It could be your coticule is not fine enough of a finisher for your needs, or it could be technique. Of the natural finishers, the coticule can be difficult to learn because of the slurry, which in itself has a steep learning curve.
If you are not happy with the Cotiucle edge and want more keenness, Chrome Oxide may provide it, though most use Chrome Oxide for smoothness.
If it is keenness you are after, Diamond or CBN may be a better choice, beginning with .50. For many, Diamond is too aggressive and must be smoothed with Chrome Oxide or a lot of stropping on leather, for comfort.
To add to the confusion, the substrate will affect paste performance. For example Diamond on Balsa is more aggressive than the same Diamond paste on a hanging Cotton canvas strop.
So, if your Coticule, is not keen enough, I would replace it with a 12K Super Stone, and if needed paste with Chrome Oxide for comfort.
And yes, you do not need a finisher after a finisher, especially if you are new to honing, you are just adding another variable, simplify do not make it more complicated.
I use a 12K Super Stone as a baseline finisher, then fine tune the edge with another finishing stone or paste.
Is it overkill? Of course it is. Needed? No, but the amount of final finishing needed is very little, usually just a few laps.
Either way, one must learn all their stones, even synthetics. There is a ton of info written and on video on coticules and a couple of hour of hands on coaching with a mentor will cut your learning curve dramaticly and improve your edges.
The easiest method to learn to hone on is a synthetic progression, 1/4/8K or equivalent and linen and leather. Once you have mastered these 3 and are getting good, smooth shaves… then experiment with naturals.
One last observation, You will always see Coticules for sale in the classifieds, you never see, 12K Super Stones for sale… Hmmm.
finisher after finisher well paste after a coti is the same as finisher after finisher. if the coti dosent cut it then its time for a finisher. I can finish hone off my coti but the preference is apache finish it is chaloney said added keenness with the smooth coti factor still evident. crox is the same as adding another stone any way you look at it abrasive is abrasive whether from a stone, sandpaper , synthetic stone or crox. how many people come off a coti and go to an Escher or thuri? the end result. no rights or wrongs just what works for them.
Back when I first started honing a few years ago I thought it was my coticules fault I wasn't getting the top notch edges. So I got me a few thuris and it really never solved my problems. Good edges, but not spectacular.
So I put the thuris away and concentrated solely on maxing out my coticules. Now I rarely even use a thuri, I normally go straight to linen and leather and I love it.