First honing attempt isn't going to well

Alright, well first things first. I just picked up a new Norton 4/8k and niniwa 12k to learn how to hone. Razor in question is a $30 ebay razor in good condition, no cracks/pitting/rust anywhere near the edge, only a very little pitting up near the spine on one side.

Now I was able to get the 4k side of the norton flat and got all of that roughness smoothed out of the stone with very little problems. Didn't really take all that much. Now I was working on the 8k side for a great deal of time and just didn't seem like I was getting anywhere, the DMT plate did appear to be cutting properly because whenever I would pull the stone up to check on it, I could see the yellow slurry on the dmt clearly. This Norton stone just seemed to have the center of the stone be very high, could not get the corners to smooth out at all. Now after 25+ mins I decided to take a break and go work on the niniwa 12k stone. It started to do the same thing the 8k norton was. However I didn't put quite as much time into this stone, a full hour had passed since I started lapping these stones and holding the dmt plate under running water was starting to fatigue my arms, these things aren't light. So I have stopped for the night as my hands are just a bit to shaky to be trusted now.

My question is do new stones like the norton 8k and niniwa 12k take a substantial amount of time to get them flat initially? I was using very little pressure at all during this process, was using just enough to make sure the stones stayed in contact. Is more pressure normally needed? Or is this normal behavior.

I suppose ill ask if you are
#1 certain your lapping plate is flat.
#2 are you using a figure eight motion to ensure even coverage of your stones.
#3 have you lightly beveled all edges of your hones?

Marked a grid with pencil to see your progress and where the problem is? These are just some things to do ,, but time and patience is the way with razors , slow a steady grasshopper . And I thought you were talking about your first honing , which I was going to say that is typical , it takes a while to get that down too . Good luck. Ntc

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

Marked a grid with pencil to see your progress and where the problem is? These are just some things to do ,, but time and patience is the way with razors , slow a steady grasshopper . And I thought you were talking about your first honing , which I was going to say that is typical , it takes a while to get that down too . Good luck. Ntc

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+ 1. There is guessing and then there is method. Going slow is great - the pencil grid takes out the guess work.

Hang in there!

The last Norton I lapped was like a banana. Concave on 4k & convex on 8k. I lapped across the centre of the 8k for a while till the ends could contact the plate evenly otherwise the plate just rocked with the shape of the stone & got nowhere.
I have also had more than one warped DMT. You need to check the plate as well.

After reading post #1 I thought maybe your stroke was too long. If your lapping plate is traveling more than 25% off the edge of your stone you may be unintentionally rocking it putting more pressure/wear on the ends.

We all see something different. I do quite a bit of lapping. I put the plug in the sink and put piece of rubber in the bottom of the sink. In it's former life the mat was either a piece of conveyer belt or a truck bed liner. I suppose any heavy piece of rubber works. I run the water into the sink until it is a couple of inches over the mat, the DMT plate goes on the mat and the hone gets rubbed on the plate. It makes for better ergonomics and the DMT stays wet and clear of slurry. Anti fatigue mats will probably work for a rubber source too. The pencil grid really is the way to find when it is flat.

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Originally Posted by Blistersteel

I suppose ill ask if you are
#1 certain your lapping plate is flat.
#2 are you using a figure eight motion to ensure even coverage of your stones.
#3 have you lightly beveled all edges of your hones?

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1) I'm not to certain I actually have something I know for a fact is straight, recently moved so some things are in disarray. It does not see saw on a glass. I'll see if I can come up with something to see if its perfectly flat.
2) Yes
3) I have been beveling them after I flatten them, should this be done before?

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

Marked a grid with pencil to see your progress and where the problem is? These are just some things to do ,, but time and patience is the way with razors , slow a steady grasshopper . And I thought you were talking about your first honing , which I was going to say that is typical , it takes a while to get that down too . Good luck. Ntc

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Yes I have been marking the stone up, this is how I know that the corners are just not getting hit (the center seems very high)

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

After reading post #1 I thought maybe your stroke was too long. If your lapping plate is traveling more than 25% off the edge of your stone you may be unintentionally rocking it putting more pressure/wear on the ends.

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Well that's the opposite of what i'm seeing actually, only the center of the stone seems to be wearing down on the plate, the corners are not getting worn in at all. They still have that very rough glaze on them.


My though is that lapping these stones shouldn't take an hour or more and if I'm doing something improperly.

I do my lapping similar to the way RezDog does his. Take the plug out of the kitchen sink, lay down some anti slip drawer line Eco Grip Liner 12 in x 10 ft, White | Canadian Tire for the DMT to sit on, run a constant trickle of water on the DMT and lap the hone. I do mark the hone with a pencil grid also.

Bob

Yes it could take more than an hour. Tc

I also want to get one variable out of the way. Is the razor from eBay not one of the blades from the "do not buy" (my words) list found in the library. If not what type or manufacture is it

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

Yes it could take more than an hour. Tc

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That's a little comforting because I was reading that it should only take 15-20 minutes even on new stones so after the 40 minute mark I was getting worried something wasn't right. None of my other stone have even done this, but then again I've never used these high grits before or even norton/niniwa stones before.

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Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

I also want to get one variable out of the way. Is the razor from eBay not one of the blades from the "do not buy" (my words) list found in the library. If not what type or manufacture is it

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Not a 100% sure on the exact manufacture, think its "Ontario Cuttlery". I ran it buy you guys before I bought it, link to the thread is below.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/aucti...ce-honing.html

Yes, lapping stones can take a while.
My Naniwa SS 1k and 3k both took at least 1hr under running water.
With my 8k I gave up after 2 separate 45 minute sessions.
With the 12k I gave up after 1hr.

The 8k and 12k still have about an inch of unlapped surface at each end, so I just keep the blade at the center and avoid these areas.

Cheers.

I'm the same when it comes to lapping/flattening my 8k and chosera 1k. Both seemed to take forever, but of course are very hard stones. I think I spent on the 8k at least an hour before setting aside till another day and then it still took about another hour and a half. I was using at the time a norton flattening stone. But for the method I like glen's method of filling the sink to where the water is just sitting above or on the surface of the stone (stone on bottom while holding the plate). To me this allows for constant movement of water to wash off the stones without splashing and just change out the water when needed. But the trickling water works ok too.

Wow, I am astounded that it could take so long a time to lap a Naniwa SS hone. That has not been my experience with them. I have also seen plenty of warnings not to water soak Naniwa hones for a prolonged period of time on supplier web sites.

Bob

Norton's are some pretty hard stones and it sounds like you got one shaped like a banana. If it's still a ways out, you may consider a more rough approach like some wet/dry sandpaper in a more coarse grit & then follow up with your DMT. Naniwa SS's on the other hand are one of the softer stones and if it's taking a long time you aren't getting enough water on the DMT to rinse out the "mud" so the diamond stone can cut.

This is a good task for you, it will teach you patience...which is most definitely required when honing razors. Take your time and sometimes you may have to walk away & come back when your head is right...just don't give up!

I had to do my Norton with sandpaper as well, after it was flat I went back to the DMT for a bit. This will be much quicker especially if you do have a really big rise in the center of the hone

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Norton's are some pretty hard stones and it sounds like you got one shaped like a banana. If it's still a ways out, you may consider a more rough approach like some wet/dry sandpaper in a more coarse grit & then follow up with your DMT. Naniwa SS's on the other hand are one of the softer stones and if it's taking a long time you aren't getting enough water on the DMT to rinse out the "mud" so the diamond stone can cut.

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wow I'm surprised
none of my hones (Nani 1k & 12k, barbers hones or the Norton 4/8k) took anywhere near an hour
the Norton was the worse I admit as it was slightly bowed also, so I went with 240 grit W&D on it until the pencil lines where gone then went to about 320 - 360 W&D for the final clean up, which is all I have and do use on all my other hones to clean them up
these are all done on wet W&D on a glass plate with a regular rinse
the Barbers hones I have taken to 2k W&D to finish them in the same process no problems

Do what you have to do. Sometimes I've used the pavement or a 120 grit diamond plate to get in the ballpark.

Alright, thanks for all the suggestions, with some changes managed to get them all flat. Took about an additional hour in total. Changed up to using a cotton cloth under the DMT plate in standing water, didn't seem to really change how the DMT cut but it was easier on me. Super stone cut faster then the Norton for sure. Now I can actually try to hone on these new stones.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

The last Norton I lapped was like a banana. Concave on 4k & convex on 8k. I lapped across the centre of the 8k for a while till the ends could contact the plate evenly otherwise the plate just rocked with the shape of the stone & got nowhere.
I have also had more than one warped DMT. You need to check the plate as well.

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In regard to the warped DMT, what was your recourse? Does the manufacturer work with you when these warped units are found?

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Originally Posted by tab

In regard to the warped DMT, what was your recourse? Does the manufacturer work with you when these warped units are found?

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Yes, faulty plates were replaced.

Glad you got it sorted out. I spent probably 15 minutes or less on each side of my 220/1k Norton, 1/2 hour on each side of my 4k/8k Norton, and I lost track of how much time I spent on my Guangxhi 12k stone. That thing came so rough you could see the rough cut on the back where the sheet was chiseled and broken from the rock bed, and the ridges from the saw blade on the other where it was cut to size. It was worth it when I finally got it flat, but if I had known they came that rough I would've gone elsewhere.

Thanks to all these posts. It is good to hear these things before I start learning. None I have more info to prepare for.