Escher or Coticule differences

I have just started experimenting with natural stones and have been getting some nice results from a BBW/ Coticule natural I was lucky enough to come across along with a blue Escher. Anybody want to weigh in on the differences in the yellow coticule and the Escher. I have been using the BBW similar to the way I used a 4/8 Norton and am really impressed with the results. I may never use a synthetic again to sharpen it has amazed me:tu Now I am trying to understand the Coti and the Escher as far as using them together or are they essentially the same? I assume they are both finishers in one regard but how are they different.

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Originally Posted by Highwayman

I assume they are both finishers in one regard but how are they different.

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About $500.00 worth ........... ;)

Kidding aside, the Thuringan/Escher abrasive consists of quartz embedded in chalk, while the coticule's abrasive is garnet. So different abrasives have different cutting characteristics. I think the Escher is solely a finisher, while the coticule can be a sharpener/finisher, and according to some, a bevel setter as well.

Some say that there is no use going to an Escher after a coticule but I have many times in the past and it seemed to me to offer an improvement on the edge. YMMV.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

About $500.00 worth ........... ;)

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That got a belly laugh....thanks for the smile! :D

The Escher is just a superior finisher to the coticule. Of course that assumes a good one and the proper type.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The Escher is just a superior finisher to the coticule. Of course that assumes a good one and the proper type.

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It also assumes comparison to an inferior, poor word ... a less than superior coticule.

I've tried a lot of coticules, but I've got two that an Escher/ Thuringian cannot better.

I'm sorry ... Make that three. I've also got a Salm that is easily the equal of any Escher in my collection .. or that I have tried.

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Originally Posted by Highwayman

... I have been using the BBW similar to the way I used a 4/8 Norton and am really impressed with the results. I may never use a synthetic again to sharpen it has amazed ...

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That’s exactly what it is!

A coticule is surely the most universal hone you can get for honing a straight – and on the other side I think the most underrated and misunderstood hone. Even if there is a lot of information on coticules – here at the forum as well as on the old coticule.be site which is still available – a lot of people who have coticules don’t really know how to use them. A lot people think of a finisher and use the coticules only with water at the end of the progression. Than they are sometimes astonished that the cotis don’t give the fine or sharp edge they expect to get and lay the coticule aside.
If you once really understand how the unicot or better the dilucot method works and can use it for your straight with a good coticule – you can really forget all synthetic hones in the 1 to 8k range.
Of course there are differences in the quality of coticules.
The differences concern mainly two qualities: The speed of honing and the end fineness. There are coticules that work much faster than others. And there are coticules that are finer and give a more sharp or more smooth edge than others. But the whole progression in between bevel setting and maybe a stage equivalent to a 8 K synthetic can basically be done with nearly all coticules. You may want to have a 1K synth for bevel setting, just to have a defined starting point for your progression. But also this is not really needed, also a bevel can be set with a coti. It is all a matter of time and patience.

A thuringian hone is an endfinisher. It can also be used with thick and light slurry at the end of the normal progression, but not in that range, that a coti does (also this is possible, again a question of time and patience, but why do more work than necessary).
Since about 1 year I really did the step to sell all synthetic hones higher than the 1 K and only work with coticules (or special bavarian-frankonian hones – which work the same way than cotis). But I really love the smoothness of a yellow-green thuringian on my straights. Also some coticules don’t give me the maximum sharpness that I like. That’s why most of the time I follow the good work the coticule did with a good thuringian.

The way I read your post you already have a Blue Escher :shrug:

Go forth and hone form your own opinion

My only suggestion is make sure you try a few different grinds and steels before you even try and and make a determination

Honestly when I get a new stone or hone in it takes me about 100 different razors on it to even think I know what I am doing then I tweak from there...


IMHO -

They are not the same

The idea that you cannot 1 stone hone on a Escher is ludicrous the issue is it COSTS too much to waste the Escher for that when a Synthetic does is so much better, same with Coticules.. Yes I said better, the edge under magnification after a Chosera 1k is awesome to look at, and not bad to shave off either..

As stated above the binder and cutting agents are different between the two so they will react differently to various steels, you might find yourself like me gravitating toward honing certain steels with one and other steels with the other to get the best possible edge.

The feel while honing is also a bit different I find the feel of an Escher to me more "Silky" while honing, while the Coticule I feel gives me more control, might be different for you.


Simple fact: "The more you hone, the more your skills are honed, and the hone magically becomes better" :p

I was really more impressed with the BBW side of the combo. I honed two razors that had already had bevels set on a Norton 1k. One was a Josesph Rodgers (sheffield) the other a Boker (solingen) both extra hollow ground. Using only water the BBW sharpened them so well I would not have hesitated to strop and shave with either of them. The Coti was icing on the cake. What really impressed me was how fast the BBW was with only water. I was under the impression it was a slow cutter. At any rate I appreciate all the feedback from so many experienced honers. What a siite. :rock:Where else can you get an education these days for free.

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Originally Posted by Highwayman

The Coti was icing on the cake. What really impressed me was how fast the BBW was with only water.

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Where Glen mentioned having to hone 100 razors to get to know the stone, most of us won't have that opportunity, not being in the professional honing/restoration business, we just won't encounter that many razors. That is why I always tell guys to ease up on buying bunches of hones. Your description of your particular coticule/BBW is unique IME. Not that I haven't had some that were 'fast', speaking of the yellow side, but I've never had much luck with the BBW side, or maybe I didn't work with it enough.

I bought a La Veinette 'Kosher' coticule from Ardennes for a hunk of $ when they first began selling on the internet. Got the hone, an 8x2 slate back piece, and I wasn't impressed with it. Messed with it some, but I had so many that I didn't mess with it a lot. Couple years later I did something like 260 round trips, water only, testing every 30 round trips, and got a TI Super Gnome as sharp as I've gotten any razor, on any hone.

Say all that to say, just like Glen says, about finding if a particular razor is 'happier' on a particular hone, working with the hone you have to 'figure it out' is a good idea, rather than having a drawer full of them and buying one after another, never working with any of them enough to really get to know them. IMHO.

To be perfectly honest, I've never used the BBW side much on any of them. I just can't see the point when the yellow side is available, having higher garnet content at a finer size.

And, I made the same mistake as Jimmy when I got my first La Veinnette. I just did not put enough laps into the finishing process. My best LVs are frighteningly fast on slurry, and painfully slow on water alone. Very hard, and quite difficult to raise slurry on .. especially if using a matching LV slurry stone. That stone sat and sat while I experimented with other veins, and other stones from other parts of the world. One day I revisited that stone, determined to learn it, and now that LV, and it's brother can hold their own with any natural stone that I've tried. So, there is definitely something to say for sticking with a stone until it's secrets are unlocked!

I really appreciate all the help. Maybe I just got lucky with those two or it was my imagination from unfamiliarity. I have really tried to listen to Glen and Lynn's posts about the importance of a bevel set. Maybe the time on the norton 1K was well spent. Still trying to learn to hone properly and the help I've gotten here has been really valuable. Thanks again for sharing the wisdom.:beer1:

Using the BBW side of a Coti doesnt make too much sense as mentioned by Druid the garnet content is much lower then on a Yellow Coticule side....

When a Coticule is used after a 1k Stone its usable very variable in the range up to 8k and higher....i also do prefer the finish on a coticule or a thuringian Stone which both gives me very comfortable and smooth shaves..

For me most of the Natural Stones do have a certain character or soul which all other kinds of synths do not have in any way....The synths work very well, surgical clean, always re-produceable results, so they do not offer any fun in honing for me personally.

They are shurely a good tool for people who needs to hone a hundred dotzend of razors due to their business and probably these are a good start for beginners searching for constant results.

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Originally Posted by doorsch

Using the BBW side of a Coti doesnt make too much sense as mentioned by Druid the garnet content is much lower then on a Yellow Coticule side....

When a Coticule is used after a 1k Stone its usable very variable in the range up to 8k and higher....i also do prefer the finish on a coticule or a thuringian Stone which both gives me very comfortable and smooth shaves..

For me most of the Natural Stones do have a certain character or soul which all other kinds of synths do not have in any way....The synths work very well, surgical clean, always re-produceable results, so they do not offer any fun in honing for me personally.

They are shurely a good tool for people who needs to hone a hundred dotzend of razors due to their business and probably these are a good start for beginners searching for constant results.

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Yes! +1 :tu

A little late to it here, but I've tried several coticules and several eschers. The eschers are all almost the same, even with color variations and they don't wow me but they do what they're supposed to do (finish a razor) reliably, and even in hands that don't have much experience.

I've had, I guess, four good coticules, and they are all much different than the eschers. They are coarser stones with the same amount of pressure or technique and more of an experimenter's stone.

Personally, I see them both as overpriced for what they do. Japanese naturals on the medium hard side are not much different than a thuri, but the concession is that they are all a bit different unless you get a stone that came from the same mine and same strata and close to another stone. I can find hard koppa that do a very good job (at about $75), and stones that cost $500 that are not that much different, the chance being that you might get a piece of stone (koppa) that is not that great and have to buy another at $75. I haven't seen an inexpensive coticule of any size nor a thuri of size, and as long as the escher market stays high, it doesn't matter too much what you pay because you can get most of it back.

Coticules have been a much bigger pain in the butt for me to sell because of their inconsistency. If I have a good one, I'd like to recover the cost of it when I want to unload it, but the fact that some aren't that great drags down the used market price for a good one.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Simple fact: "The more you hone, the more your skills are honed, and the hone magically becomes better" :p

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Best statement I have seen in a LONG while Glen & pure fact IMO!

I hate coticules, but it's because I can't match my edges I get off my other stones...yet. I know it's me as I have shaved off good coticule edges, they are just my Achilles heal

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Originally Posted by doorsch

Using the BBW side of a Coti doesnt make too much sense as mentioned by Druid the garnet content is much lower then on a Yellow Coticule side....

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Could be a good way to save the coticule side of the stone, and also do not underestimate the finishing power of a BBW, Interesting study to look at
http://www.coticule.be/heritage.html.../BBW-study.pdf

The best way to get good with any coticule you have laying around, including one that doesn't seem like it will work that fine, is take a bevel set razor and ban yourself from using anything else other than the coticule for several months. I guarantee if you can hone with any other stone, you'll find out what the coticule likes and get an edge you can live with. Same goes for any stone that has a marginal reputation.

There's something that always occurs to me with that, though, and that's that even once you master a coticule you have, if you go back to your old favorite after that you'll probably think "I still get a better edge easier with ___" (for me that's a thuringian or a good japanese stone).

Marginal oilstones and coarse-ish coticules, I have always been able to get a good edge on the nth shave, even if I can't get a great one right off of the razor. Which goes back to the way some old literature describes an edge, where you coddle the bevel a little bit to keep it in shape, but never work the linen-prepared edge off of a razor. Those are the kind of things you stumble on if you force yourself to use a stone that otherwise feels like it provides an uncomfortable edge.

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Originally Posted by Martin103

Could be a good way to save the coticule side of the stone, and also do not underestimate the finishing power of a BBW, Interesting study to look at
http://www.coticule.be/heritage.html.../BBW-study.pdf

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Thanks Martin, i already know the document. I probably didnt explain my statement correct or detailed enough, as i was referring in the thinking of working after a 1K stone with serious steel removal...

More here:
http://www.coticule.be/faq-reader/it...garnets41.html

I cited Barts statement in comparison of GBB/BBW:

"That makes BBW's slower than Coticules and if we are aiming for serious steel removal during the first stages of honing, the average Coticule will perform a great deal faster than any BBW. Hence, if the choice to do serious bevel correction is between Coticule and BBW, pick the Coticule."

Every older person I've talked to (which I guess is all of about 3) always says "don't use ___ side", and they're referring to the blue side. That includes carvers, who never use the blue side, either.

I haven't followed that discussion in detail on here or any of the other coticule boards (you can't even talk on one of them without getting permission from the members, can you? I can't even see the board posts, they're secret or something), but I'm guessing that the desire to have and use the BBW side is a new thing. I don't use it, but still would rather have a natural combo than a glued combo stone, anyway (I'll admit, they look nicer).

I never noticed the blue side to cut faster than the yellow, anyway, or even as fast. It's just a novelty to use something different sometimes.

I think maybe some of the difference in BBW results might be attributed to the BBW's..

The ones being marketed separately for the last 10 years or so do a better job at "Honing" then the ones I have tried the were attached to the back of an older Coticule layer as a support stone..

That could just be my imagination at work too, or shear luck, I haven't done serious testing nor would I, to me it is a niche stone that is fun to mess with... I will play around when I have a really outstanding older stubtail type blade, coming off the bevel set going to a BBW and then a final finish on the Coticule, it seems to give a softer cutting approach to that old steel and a longer lasting comfortable edge.. Again just my impression, no proof

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think maybe some of the difference in BBW results might be attributed to the BBW's..

The ones being marketed separately for the last 10 years or so do a better job at "Honing" then the ones I have tried the were attached to the back of an older Coticule layer as a support stone..

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I can't recall whether it was Bart, Bruno, or maybe another member from Belgium, but someone posted photos of roads paved with BBW, fences built out of the stuff, IIRC a home with a BBW rock face on the exterior, and last but not least, a large table made of BBW. Whether it was Bart I don't know, but the fact that up until the past decade or so, BBW was not even considered as a material viable for honing.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I can't recall whether it was Bart, Bruno, or maybe another member from Belgium, but someone posted photos of roads paved with BBW, fences built out of the stuff, IIRC a home with a BBW rock face on the exterior, and last but not least, a large table made of BBW. Whether it was Bart I don't know, but the fact that up until the past decade or so, BBW was not even considered as a material viable for honing.

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Did some searching and found this photo, originally posted by Bart, of a house in Belgium he said is built entirely out of BBW ;

Attachment 188043

I couldn't find the photos of the BBW fences, table, but they are in the archive somewhere.

off topic but when i saw JimmyHAD say he did some searching , i was getting excited to see the rest of the pics he mentioned ..lol..

I am not sure Jimmy if you mean this foto:

Attachment 188074

It was published in the coticule diaries were you can also find the foto of the house you posted. At the beginning of the article they describe how they walked along trails solidified with belgian blue whetstones.

Attachment 188075

The whole article could be downloaded here:

http://www.coticule.be/heritage.html